Albert & Ernest Powrie - War Heroes

[flood169]

I recently came accross the story of two of my ancestors from the second world war. This father and son were killled 4 days apart on different continents. Their names were Private Ernest Peter Powrie (18 years) of the Black Watch and Staff Seargent Albert Powrie (48 years) of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. Here is the link to the obituary, it involves a bit of scrolling;
http://www.scotsatwar.org.uk/rohprints/p.htm
Anyway, with such a striking story I wonder if anyone could help me in gathering more information. Morbid as it may sound, I want to know how they both died. I already know where. I've searched for death certificates but the only ones available do not list cause of death as they were both killed abroad. Does anyone know another way of finding this out? I've already tried Scotlands People and the obituaries.
If anyone wants to share any more information on these men or is connected to it in any way, please PM me

[AdrianB38]

I know virtually nothing about tracing WW2 soldiers but if it's anything like WW1, then a good start for the guy in the 5th Battalion, Black Watch, would be to find out what that battalion was doing on the day in question. Which, in the case of a WW1 battalion would mean reading their War Diary. His father, in the REME, might be more of a problem since you don't have a specific unit.

Either way, the other thing to do would be to apply for their service histories from the MoD - a lengthy process. I am not clear either on confidentiality rules (I'm sure they keep changing) but generally it's easier (and you get the full story) if you are a descendant (and I mean "direct descendant", not a "relative").

Adrian
PS - I'm quite expecting someone to say "But you can't access WW2 War Diaries easily!"

[flood169]

Albert was the brother of my maternal great grandfather, Ernest his son, so I guess I'm a direct descendant I already know the units/battalions however and know exactly where they died and are buried. I've already mailed a former Colonel of the REME (museum curator) and he provided papers to apply to the MOD for service records. I'm not sure what a war diary is and who would compile it?
I've already looked at perhaps applying for the service medals of both parties, but boy is it complicated! As you've indicated, I have to prove that I'm the nearest "direct descendant", but that is virtually impossible as I've no idea if there is anyone alive who is more senior to me, or more closely linked to them both (Albert had one more son, Ernest did not have children).
I'm not giving up however and one way or the other I'm going to compile a tribute to these equally tragic and inspiring events. With a bit more knowledge and research I am pretty sure I'll come across something which will open up other areas on their lives.

[AdrianB38]

I'm not sure what a war diary is and who would compile it?

The War Diaries in WW1 were compiled by the staff of the unit in question. Thus, the infantry battalion's staff would write up the diary of the actions / movements / tasks carried out that day. Individual soldiers are seldom mentioned but you will know what the battalion was doing at that time. Support units (like REME companies) may not always have a unit specific diary if WW1 is anything to go by. For the elder guy in the REME you need to know something like a company number in REME, or which Division his company (or whatever) was attached to, in order to find any War Diary.

Just been checking further - War Diaries were kept for WW2 and they are at Kew. See "Unit war diaries" in TNA Guide http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/army-second-world-war-operations.htm

[flood169]

Yes I see what you mean now. I'm not sure that I need to know such in depth detail as movements as I know the rough details from the obituary ie evacuated from Dunkirk, posted to West Africa then India etc. I'm trying not to over reach myself I think and just compose a summary of what roughly happened. More importantly I would love to have the medals (or copies), the berets and to know exactly what happened in regards to their deaths (probably impossible I know). Its just a shame that there's very few veterans about now.
I will however try what you suggest. The Colonal at the REME is very interested in the story and has promised to carry out a full background search for a small donation. He suggests though that I do exhaust all avenues of inquiry first. Thanks for the advice 

[bleckie]

Hi

See link below for service records

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html

Yours Aye
BruceL

[AdrianB38]

Thanks Bruce - not sure I'd seen the latest link...

The crucial point is this bit (which you can find if you follow the links through)

After this period (25 years from death. AB), and if it is held, in addition MOD will disclose without the requirement for next of kin consent (my italics. AB):

    the units in which he/she served
    the dates of this service and the locations of those units
    the ranks in which the service was carried out and details of WWII campaign medals

So it may not be as complex as you (or I) feared.
Adrian

[flood169]

Thanks everyone for your contributions. I was perhaps getting a bit overwhelmed with the amount of research I am undertaking, so have decided in the meantime to dedicate my time to finding out more about these men. Now it doesn't seem so complex. I am taking the advice on the posts and hopefully will build a broader picture of their movements.

[MonicaL]

Hi Adrian

Just adding these links in case you haven't come across it already www.dundeecity.gov.uk/roh/1368.htm and http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/roh/1367.htm

Monica