Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?

[Ruskie]

I am sorry to put a damper on this, but I thought that inscription sounded familiar. I'm afraid it is a folk rhyme rather an an original poem.  There are many variations of it.
(When I was young we used to write similar things inside our books).

From good old google:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tzl/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tzk/

Of course the most important thing is that it is in Mary Ann's own hand. 

[CarolRR]

No damper at all Ruskie - I had no idea whether it was her own creation or not - it makes no difference to me, but I definitely wouldn't want to take credit for someone else's work, so thank you for pointing that out.  What is written in my grandmother's photo-album makes me smile, I feel her sense of humour.
Late this afternoon, I did a google search simply on "Alice Hall" - one of the first results was a VERY VERY grim story concerning an Alice Hall, which is currently playing out in the London courts - again, the stomach almost turned.  I wonder ...

[california dreamin]

Mornin' CarolRR and all

I'm afraid I come with more questions and no answers as I have never researched in Leicestershire or Notts.  However, I was wondering the following (I may have missed this by not reading the thread carefully enough, in which case I apologise!):

How was the conclusion reached that Mary Ann was not the child of Hall? I know that it was stated that Harriet had a child before she and Hall married but that (in my mind) would not preclude him as the father. Harriet may have been cohabiting with him prior to that. Again, why would a man such as Hall marry a woman with a child taking on that responsibility? If the information supplied that Hall was not related to the child was from a police or court statement perhaps he said that because he felt he would be dealt with in a more lenient fashion? I think the statement from the newspaper said there was no relationship as far as could be ascertained or something like that.

Also, I would want to see if there were any existing police or prison records for Hall.  I know Manchester have a great collection and a Police archives - but Leceistershire?  Also, I think I remember the paper also saying he was known to them.  Which to me implies previous convictions.  The police & prison registers carry a great amount of information such as addresses, next of kin and sometimes further comments which I don't think would have made their way to the newspaper.  I think for completeness it may be useful to draw up a timeline of events for Hall.  I am a great believer (like another chatter) of drawing up timelines. Is it worth a phone call to the Archives to see what they have? Carol may not have a huge interest in Hall at the moment but...

And  for interest only I found this:   http://tinyurl.com/cx7rgwy
As I am always interested in what things were really like in the community during the time my ancestors lived there.

Finally!, it would, I  think be interesting to try and chase down any descendants of Harriet Fisher's other children and see if they were agreeable to a DNA test.  Fascinating stuff.

PS -Yes, Carol I take your point about the Owens family not knowing any more than what they were told by Barnardos. I guess I was thinking they may have lived in the same community and may have heard gossip or stories not in the paper. I know it was a long shot!

[Ruskie]

I think there initial confusion regarding the parentage of the child. Initially the newspaper article said Hall was no relation but Hall is alleged to have said that he had been living with the mother and married her when the child was 2 or 3 months old, but I don't think he admitted to being the father. The marriage between Hall and Harriet Fisher was found as well as a the birth of a Mary Ann Fisher 2 months before the marriage. All of this is recalled in giblet's transcription on page 9/19. Carol is awaiting certificates.

The timeline is on page 13 and contains all that is known about the case including all that is known about Hall.

I think that newspaper articles have been searched looking for any other reports of crimes committed by Hall, but nothing has been found.

It is a good idea to see if there are any prison records for him.

[msr]

Although I have noticed the title of this thread over the last few days I hadn't read it till just now.

Carol, what a harrowing story! As a complete outsider one cannot read it without a great deal of emotion, but how wonderful that you are being helped by such dedicated people.

Your grandmother looked gentle and happy, which considering the abuse of her early childhood is quite amazing.   I am so glad that she lived a happy life, even though it was a relatively short one.
You must be very proud of her.
I wish you well in your quest, and must show my appreciation to all who are involved.

Susan

[Ruskie]

It has been suggested that I repost the timeline for anyone who would like to catch up. This is the information that rootschatters have gathered so far - and relationships are unproven. Carol is awaiting certificates and information from Nottinghamshire Archives regarding Workhouse records.
The transcription of the newspaper article which gives a good outline of the case is on page 9/10.


c 1874 - Harriett Fisher born Ilkeston Derbyshire, father George

c 1876 - James Hall born

1881 census - 3325/100/3  Harriet born abt 1874 - parents George and Harriet

1891 census - 2665/ 25/ 43  George and daughter Harriet (surname transcribed as) Fislin 17 yrs (b abt 1874)

1895 - Oct-Dec Mary Ann Fisher birth Basford

1896 - 29th January - Mary Ann Fisher baptised Ilkeston. Mother is Harriet Fisher

1896 - 7th March - Marriage in Ilkeston of James Hall (age 20 years, father William) married Harriet Fisher (age 22 yrs, father George) [GRO ref Basford 7b 205 Mar.Qtr 1896]

1897 - 13/14 November Loughborough Fair - James Hall committed cruelty to child.
Hall says he was with his wife from his marriage until the fair.
She went off with another man at the fair.
She and another youngster went away.

1897 - About December - Hall's wife was looking for him and said they had purchased the child at Derby. It did not belong to him. Hall disputed this. Hall said child was 2 years old October last. He said he married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church when the child was a few months old. He was
then working at Stanton Ironworks Company

1898 - 12th January - the case against James Hall was heard at Loughboro' Petty Sessions and he was sentenced to ten week's hard labour. Custody of Mary Ann given to NSPCC.

1898 - Saturday January 15th - Newspaper article of trial published in Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898;
pg. 2; Issue 4536. Also a smaller article published in the Nottinghamshire Guardian on same date

1898 - 1st March - Mary Ann entered Barnardos in Stepney Causeway - Age 2 1/2 years)

1901 census - Harriet Fisher, single born abt 1873 living in Nottingham with daughter Alice 2 yrs. She is in the Basford workhouse.3191 /118 /6 (mistranscribed as Harritt Fisher)

1901 census - Mary Ann (with new surname Williams), a 5 year old nurse child, Dr Barnardos Home, is with the Owen family - 759/ 96/23 living in Kent

1904 - December - Mary Ann returned to Barnados because Mrs Owens was too ill to care for her.She had been fostered by the Owens family for 6 years. 

1905 - 25th May - Mary Ann sailed to Canada

1909 - Jan 14 - Mary Ann receives a letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22:  Mary Ann said she remembers nothing of any relatives and was placed in home when very young.

1911 census - Harriett Fisher is an inmate in Bagthorpe Workhouse, with 13 year old Alice Fisher and 6 year old John Fisher. Harriet is a charwoman b Ilkeston.

1919 - Deaths Mar quarter
Fisher    Harriett   age  45    Nottingham    vol 7b   page 444
(not confirmed)

[heywood]

May I just suggest some caution as yet.
From the original information that Hall had married in Ilkeston - a woman with a young child, we found Harriet Fisher and Mary Ann.
That is the basis of all this and as yet is unproven. I did try to follow up anything re Harriet and Mary Ann before I posted the info together with the census info because of the sensitivity of the case and although it ties in with James Hall and seems highly likely, nothing is yet confirmed.

heywood

[CarolRR]

Thank you for all of the comments.
Heywood, I agree with you.  I'm not totally convinced that Hall is the biological father - the birth certificate is only someone's word ...  and when looking at Harriet's history/behaviour, it makes me wonder.  She named Alice "Hall" but Mary Ann and John are "Fisher".  Somewhere, there is a connection with a "Potter", who just happens to be related to Hall (his sister married a Potter).  My suspicion is due to the huge number of Potter's in my DNA matches, whereas there are '2' Hall's.  This might not mean anything, but it's nagging at me.

[aghadowey]

This has been a really interesting (and sometimes increbily sad) thread but since it's reached 21 pages this would be a good place to lock it (we usually lock at 20 pages).

Carol- please don't think this will stop you from continuing the search for information about your grandmother- just start a new topic and we'll link this one to it so readers of the new one can see all the previous details.

This thread is now continued here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tzy