Author Topic: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?  (Read 38977 times)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #117 on: Thursday 16 May 13 14:08 BST (UK) »
Hi there,
Going off on a slight tangent here. After reading the newspaper article again I thought I'd try and find Martha Haywood the female deputy of the model lodging house on the Census (only one I have access to on Freecen is 1891)
There is a Martha Haywood aged 25 with no occupation listed living with her husband and daughter in Loughborough with the place of birth Ilkeston . Could it be she had a connection with Hall?
Looby

Online heywood

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #118 on: Thursday 16 May 13 14:08 BST (UK) »
Hugs, Giblet.
"Fisher" appears to be quite a common surname in the geographical area we are looking at, with some of them being very prominent.
If anyone has birth (registry) information for Alice Fisher, born 1899(?) in Basford and/or John Fisher, b. 1906 in Basford, I will order their birth certificates.
Thanks.

Free BMD has these births:

Alice May Fisher   March  1898    Shardlow  7b 521   **probably not her as there is one in the Shardlow district in 1901.

Alice Hall  March  1899  Basford 7b 220

John Fisher  December 1905  Nottingham  7b 410

John Fisher  March 1906    Basford  7b 236 
John Henry Fisher  March 1906    Basford  7b 163   
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Offline Ruskie

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #119 on: Thursday 16 May 13 14:11 BST (UK) »
Carol, James Hall siad he was working at Stanton Ironworks Company when he married, so he may not always have been a beggar.

Offline CarolRR

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #120 on: Thursday 16 May 13 14:13 BST (UK) »
Heywood - many thanks!


Offline CarolRR

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #121 on: Thursday 16 May 13 14:16 BST (UK) »
Ruskie, you're right - thanks for pointing that out.  In my mind, he will always be a beggar. 

Online KGarrad

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #122 on: Thursday 16 May 13 14:23 BST (UK) »
Ruskie, you're right - thanks for pointing that out.  In my mind, he will always be a beggar.

Think you mis-spelled that last word?!?! ;D ;D :-X
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #123 on: Thursday 16 May 13 15:24 BST (UK) »
It was suggested earlier that a timeline might be helpful.

Heywood has put some of facts together and asked for it to be checked. I have based my timeline on this (let me know if not OK and I will remove/rephrase) and I have added some additonal information.

It is far from complete and I'm sure I have missed some things and added others which are not needed, so feel free to add, subtract and change whatever you wish.

If you would like me to modify my post I am happy to do so (but only for 24 hours as after this time we lose the ability to modify our posts).

Alternatively, if anyone wishes to use/change this to a better format, please feel free.

This is just the information that rootschatters have gathered so far - and relationships are unproven.


c 1874 - Harriett Fisher born Ilkeston Derbyshire, father George

c 1876 - James Hall born

1881 census - 3325/100/3  Harriet born abt 1874 - parents George and Harriet

1891 census - 2665/ 25/ 43  George and daughter Harriet (surname transcribed as) Fislin 17 yrs (b abt 1874)

1895 - Oct-Dec Mary Ann Fisher birth Basford

1896 - 29th January - Mary Ann Fisher baptised Ilkeston. Mother is Harriet Fisher

1896 - 7th March - Marriage in Ilkeston of James Hall (age 20 years, father William) married Harriet Fisher (age 22 yrs, father George) [GRO ref Basford 7b 205 Mar.Qtr 1896]

1897 - 13/14 November Loughborough Fair - James Hall committed cruelty to child.
Hall says he was with his wife from his marriage until the fair.
She went off with another man at the fair.
She and another youngster went away.


1897 - About December - Hall's wife was looking for him and said they had purchased the child at Derby. It did not belong to him. Hall disputed this. Hall said child was 2 years old October last. He said he married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church when the child was a few months old. He was
then working at Stanton Ironworks Company

1898 - 12th January - the case against James Hall was heard at Loughboro' Petty Sessions and he was sentenced to ten week's hard labour. Custody of Mary Ann given to NSPCC.

1898 - Saturday January 15th - Newspaper article of trial published in Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898;
pg. 2; Issue 4536. Also a smaller article published in the Nottinghamshire Guardian on same date

1898 - 1st March - Mary Ann entered Barnardos in Stepney Causeway - Age 2 1/2 years)

1901 census - Harriet Fisher, single born abt 1873 living in Nottingham with daughter Alice 2 yrs. She is in the Basford workhouse.3191 /118 /6 (mistranscribed as Harritt Fisher)

1901 census - Mary Ann (with new surname Williams), a 5 year old nurse child, Dr Barnardos Home, is with the Owen family - 759/ 96/23 living in Kent

1904 - December - Mary Ann returned to Barnados because Mrs Owens was too ill to care for her.She had been fostered by the Owens family for 6 years. 

1905 - 25th May - Mary Ann sailed to Canada

1909 - Jan 14 - Mary Ann receives a letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22:  Mary Ann said she remembers nothing of any relatives and was placed in home when very young.

1911 census - Harriett Fisher is an inmate in Bagthorpe Workhouse, with 13 year old Alice Fisher and 6 year old John Fisher. Harriet is a charwoman b Ilkeston.

1919 - Deaths Mar quarter
Fisher    Harriett   age  45    Nottingham    vol 7b   page 444
(not confirmed)


This is not part of the timeline, but I thought it might be worth including the following interesting finds by gpixie and Susan, which may or may not be the correct families. I have just added them here as this thread is getting very long and here they will be easy to find if needed at a later date:

A family tree on Ancestry has:
Mary J Fisher - parents George and Harriett - born in Ilkeston, Derbyshire 1862
and a sister Harriett born 1874 (Please note: no sources are given)

Mary J married brothers -
Samual Hall 1858 to 1891 and
Arthur Hall born 1869 Riddings, Derbyshire. Samual and Arthur's father is William, mother is Ann Froggatt.

The father William, was a labourer in an iron works on 1871 census.  When James Hall married Harriet Fisher in 1895, his said his father was William. [What were the occupations of both father and son on the marriage certificate?] James Hall claimed at his trial that when he marriet Mary Ann's mother he worked at the Stanton Ironworks Company.

In 1881 William is still working as an Ironworks labourer as are his sons.  There is no sign of a James Hall with this family.

William was born in Leicester, the family lived in Derby. All these places tie in with where James Hall is said to have been tramping.





Offline CarolRR

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #124 on: Thursday 16 May 13 15:45 BST (UK) »
Thank you Ruskie!
I will just point out that it appears that at the conclusion of the Loughboro' Petty Sessions hearing (Jan. 12th), custody of my grandmother was given to the NSPCC.  She was in their care until she entered Barnardo's, in Stepney Causeway, on March 1st, 1898.
I have a letter from 'Head of Child Protection Awareness', NSPCC, London, dated 14 May 2002 stating that "having carried out a check of our Legal Archives we are unable to find any case records relating to your grandmother".  I was frustrated when I received this reply, but now realize, in hindsight, that they would have been searching for information pertaining to a "Mary Ann Williams".

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #125 on: Thursday 16 May 13 16:04 BST (UK) »
Great summary and timeline, Ruskie  :)

It would be good to keep your timeline as the main summary now as the thread has got so long. If there are further additions or changes after 24 hrs to this timeline, perhaps I can make the edits for you on it to keep it fresh and update. Let me know if this is the case and you want me to this (also in case I miss any update).

Monica
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