Author Topic: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?  (Read 38970 times)

Offline giblet

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #81 on: Thursday 16 May 13 02:35 BST (UK) »
I have already started on it Ruskie  :) On my trusty lap top in front of the telly typing away  ;D

 :oCarol another late night for you! 

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #82 on: Thursday 16 May 13 02:40 BST (UK) »
I have already started on it Ruskie  :) On my trusty lap top in front of the telly typing away  ;D

 :oCarol another late night for you!

I'm sure all of those who've just joined this thread will be very interested to read it. It is very informative and essential to understanding the situation Mary Ann was in. :)

Offline CarolRR

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #83 on: Thursday 16 May 13 02:40 BST (UK) »
Ok ...  I was advised to look sideways ...  I tend to follow instructions from wisely wizards ...
My DNA match - "Fisher" - who also showed "Hall" in her family matches, gave me access to her family tree.  Her "Hall" connection comes through her "Potter" line, which is another of my most common DNA family names, and I don't have a clue where they come in to the picture.  I went through her 'tree' and discovered a "Susan Ellen Hall" born 1845-1890, married a "Daniel Potter, born 1834-1901 and they had a child "Herman Jahue Potter", born 1873-1937.  "Herman J Potter married "Edith Keith", born 1876-1973 and had a child "Claude Potter" born 1896-1989.
So ...  is Claude Potter a 1st cousin of Mary Ann Fisher - through James Hall???  Is Susan Ellen Hall the sister of 'him'???
No locations are provided, only names and dates.  Sorry.
 

Offline giblet

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #84 on: Thursday 16 May 13 02:44 BST (UK) »
I have already started on it Ruskie  :) On my trusty lap top in front of the telly typing away  ;D

 :oCarol another late night for you!

I'm sure all of those who've just joined this thread will be very interested to read it. It is very informative and essential to understanding the situation Mary Ann was in. :)

It is informative and if its on the thread another member might pick something up in it that we might have missed.
I'll be quiet for a bit and keep typing  :o


Offline CarolRR

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #85 on: Thursday 16 May 13 03:02 BST (UK) »
Forgive me, my mind is turning to mush.  I'm looking at this "Fisher" family tree that has both "Potter" and "Hall" on her maternal side, and her paternal side has "William Fisher" born 1859-1921, married Nellie Keeney, born 1880-1969.  William Fisher's father was "Ezra Fisher", b. 1835-1899, his father was also "Ezra Fisher", b. 1800-1874.
Is this a case of a sister and brother (Susan and James Hall) both marrying into the same family?  Susan married Daniel Potter and James married Harriet Fisher?  I'm so confused ...  perhaps a cup of tea might help ...  or something much, much stronger ...  "Potter" is my 4th most popular DNA match. 

Offline CarolRR

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #86 on: Thursday 16 May 13 03:14 BST (UK) »
Giblet, I meant to add yet another 'thank you' for your help with this - I'm glad that you're comfy and wish that I could help you.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #87 on: Thursday 16 May 13 03:22 BST (UK) »
I'm not sure what others would advise, but although it is tempting due to the surnames, I would not try to make the DNA family tree fit with "your"(?) Hall and Fisher. Would you be able to contact the tree owner to find out whereabouts the DNA tree's Hall, Fisher and Potters originate? A tree should show places as well as names and dates.  :-\

Maybe the best step would be to make up a family tree of "your"(?) Hall and Fisher and then see if they can be matched up anywhere with the existing tree containing similar names.

Lots of coincidences though.  :)

Offline giblet

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #88 on: Thursday 16 May 13 04:12 BST (UK) »
I agree Ruskie.

Offline giblet

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Re: Grandmother stolen at 2 years of age (1897). Help?
« Reply #89 on: Thursday 16 May 13 04:16 BST (UK) »
See how we go this time  ;D Hope i didnt leave anything out.

Saturday, January 15, 1898

GROSS CRUELTY  TO A CHILD AT LOUGHBOROUGH
HUNG UP BY STRAPS
CRAMMED IN A CUPBOARD
At the Loughbourough petty sessions on Wednesday before Mr S Wells [in the chair]The Mayor Ald Tidd, Messers U Goodacre, P Winsor, J G Shields, James Hall, labourer no fixed address was charged by Inspector Barnes, NSPCC  with cruelly ill treating a female child, aged 2 years on November 14. Mr H J Deane prosecuted for the society and said this was not a case of cruelty by neglect or indifference of parents but one of actual violence by the prisioner. This child was 2 years old and no relation to the prisoner as far as could be ascertained nor of the woman whom he cohabited. But he had the custardy of the child and was responsible for her.  He had been tramping between Loughborough, Leicester, and Derby, and at varous times he and the woman had stayed at the Model Lodging House Loughborough and on several occasions he had treated the child with great cruelty. This culminated on Fair Saturday and Sunday when he treatment of the girl was so bad that the female deputy at the lodging house complained to the police. The prisoner left  the town the same day and was arrested on a warrant on Tuesday last. After describing the acts of cruelity which would be proved by the witness Mr Deane said he thought the bench would have no hesitation in coming to the conclusion that this was a case in which a penalty should be inflicted as would show the prisioner and men like him that even children who did not belong to them could not be treated as this child had been,.
Martha Haywood female deputy at the Model said that on Fair Saturday about noon she saw the prisioner kick the child against the sink causing a bruise on the forehead the size of a half crown. On Sunday witness saw him hang the child up  by a belt around her waist  from a nail in the beam. It hung there for five minutes face down afraid to cry and witness added " The child is in court and full of measles as it can be"  Prisoner - Its only a cold it got the last day or two.- Witness, continuing  said there is a small cupboard in the kitchen. and witness had seen him push the child into it, doubling up its head and limbs to get it in. He kept it there for tow hours. On varous occasions witness had heard in the bedroom occupied  by the man, woman and child, a sound as of a strap had been used and a child crying.
Mr Winsor- Were there no other people present when he did all this? - Yes.- And they did not try to stop him? - It seemed to amuse them.
The Magisstrate's Clerk ; Didnt you people want to take it out? - The misses of the lodging house fetched it out but he repeated it.  Witness had repeatedly stopped the man from ill treating the child. - Prisoner:  I could get into the cupboard myself.
Ellen Marshall, wife of Herbert Marshall living near the Model said that on Fair Saturday November 13 the child fell down in the kitchen the prisioner slapped it for falling. He followed it to the yard, kicked it in the back, and it fell against the sink, wounding its forehead. Prisioner took it back into the house and made it lie on a form saying if it got up he would kill it.  The child lay still for a while and then moved, the prisoner slapped it, and made it lie down again. The man was quiet sober on these occasions.
Mary Sheriff, who said she was 78 last October, and walked all the way to Whitwick on Tuesday and had been fetched back by police was the next witness.  At the fair time she said she was staying at the Model and knew the prisioner and the woman with him and the child " little Mary Ann". Witness went on to describe how she saw prisoner turn his wife out and put the baby on the floor. Then he took the little baby put a strap under her little jaws and around her head and hung her up for two or three minutes. After that he put her little hands together and tied the strap around them and hung her up again. The other people in the room had a hearty good laugh but witness hid her face in her hands and could not look.
Inspector Agar, deposed that ?  ?? the prisoner on a warrant on Tuesday at the  ?  Lodging House. He told him what the charge was and prisioner said - " Who's going to give me away?"  Witness said he thought the old woman was going to give evidence against him. Prisoner remarked " Thats after giving her two two-pennorths.
Inspector Barnes said he had  measured the cupboard referred to and found it was 13 inches deep, 12 inches wide, 27 inches long. It would be impossible to get the child in without doubling its knees up to its head. The cupboard was by the side of the fireplace where a roaring fire was always on the way and it would be very hot. It was used for drying fire wood.  Witness saw the man's wife in Loughbourgh three weeks ago looking for him, and she told him that they purchased the child at Derby for the purpose of getting their living by it and it did not belong to the prisoner.
Prisoner was proceeding to dispute this statement when the Magistrate's clerk remarked it was not evidence against him and he would be wise not to ask questions as to make it evidence.