Craig Brackenridge New Monkland

[geneaglutton]

Hi Forgarian,
I have no more information on the Howies.  I'll note your information and hope I can someday help out there.  I'm in Hawaii and don't have access to material that is not online.  By the bye, my Gartshore line shows that the family stuck to the Scottish tradition of naming the first son after the father's father for at least five generations.  They were not consistent in subsequent children, although the wife's father's name does appear among the children eventually.

Aloha SoniJ,
Thanks for your information on the origins of the Gartshores of Middle Blairlin.  I was relying on Graham's research.  Several years ago, he was kind enough to pass on a Gartshore gedcom.  Some of his data I have been able to confirm through my own research, but, again, my research opportunities are somewhat limited.

Geneaglutton

[Forfarian]

How about this.

SP has 9 baptisms of children with father John Gartshore and mother Howie:
Date               Child        Mother
10 Oct 1714        John        Susanna
21 April 1717       Elizabeth  Susanna
9 August 1719     Jean        Anne
3 December 1721 John        Annie
7 June 1724         Susanna  Susanna
8 January 1727     Robert    Annie
4 January 1730    Alexander Susanna
8 October 1732    John        Anne
21 Feb 1736        Joseph    Sussana
It looks very much to me as if this is one person, sometimes recorded as Ann(i)e and sometimes as Sus(s)an(n)a. Of course one would need to check the original baptisms.

However if they are all the same person, note that the first two sons (presumably the first one died in infancy) are named John, and the next son is Robert. The first daughter is Elizabeth. If, as you say, they followed the naming tradition, this does suggest that Anne/Susanna might be the daughter of a Robert Howie. Could it be Robert H, Younger of Glentore? But if so, why is Anne/Susanna not mentioned in that sasine which mentions three, possibly four, children of Robert H of Glentore?

Thoughts, anyone?

[SoniJ]

It looks very much to me as if this is one person, sometimes recorded as Ann(i)e and sometimes as Sus(s)an(n)a. Of course one would need to check the original baptisms.

These baptisms are correct, I have copies of the originals.  The Gartshores did follow the Scottish naming tradition. Since John Gartshore's parents were named John and Elizabeth and his own name was John, it is no surprise they were the first children names and the name John was rechosen when two infants named John died young. So I have assumed that Susanna's parents were either Robert and Jean or John and Jean. Susanna is named Anna in a 1772 Bond and Tack in which Mary Mochrie promises to "support Anna Howie mother to the said Robert Gartshore my husband..."

Interestingly, in my notes taken from viewing the OPR for New Monkland, I have an entry for a baptism Feb 10 1696, John Howie & Jean Steel in Ridgend had a child baptized called Joseph, witness John Steel. This entry does not appear in a search of familysearch.org.  This couple do not appear in later baptisms, but John Howie and Margaret Steel in Ridgend or Hagmuir have children Mark (1697), John (1701) and Anna (1703).  I don't know if the name Jean Steel was a mistake in the register or whether she died and John married Margaret Steel.  Obviously Anna b. 1703 is too young to be Susanna Howie but this may be a family connection with the name Joseph Howie.

As usual, more questions than answers.

[Forfarian]

I have assumed that Susanna's parents were either Robert and Jean or John and Jean.

If (Sus)anna's mother was Jean, you'd expect her first daughter to be Jean, not Elizabeth. Perhaps (Sus)anna's mother was also an Elizabeth? Then, of course, we would need to explain why (Sus)anna's second daughter was named Jean rather than (Sus)anna.

[geneaglutton]

How many souls did these communities have?  If there are only 25 Howies in town, then Susanna must belong to one of them (or is a cousin who came on a visit and stayed).  If there are 150, we're on shakier ground.  Just wondering.

Geneaglutton

[Forfarian]

Probably nearer 25 than 150. Easter Glentore is a relatively small estate or large farm, and the fact that some of the Howies are described as 'portioner' means that the estate was either divided up among a family, or that two or more of the family owned it jointly. We'd need to see (and decipher!) the relevant sasines to find out how much land there was and how it was divided or apportioned.

I'd be astonished if (Sus)anna is not related to Joseph. The challenge will be proving it!

[DonMcA]

George HAY in Annathill.

There was a Roman Catholic 'bishop' George HAY, of the Annathill family in the late 18th C.  See "Enumeration of the inhabitants of the city of Glasgow and county of Lanark" by James Cleland who claimed to be a near relation of the George HAY.

<https://books.google.co.za/books?id=OAxDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA76> or

<https://books.google.co.za/books?id=WZg9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA148> where it gives his father as WS in Edinburgh.

Nisbett's Heraldry, Appx, p. 132 gives Andrew HAY, of Inchnoch & Mary HUCHESON a 2nd son George, who had a son James, WS in Edinburgh.

Needs a bit more evidence.

Regards, Don

[Forfarian]

I've been looking into this George Hay in Annathill, and so far the only primary reference I have found is that sasine in which Elizabeth Hay, wife of Joseph Howie of Meikle Drumgray is described as daughter of George Hay in Annathill (not, be it noted, of Annathill). The sasine is in Volume 12, which covers the period 1709 to 1719, and Elizabeth's marriage was in 1717, so the sasine presumably relates to that. 

James Cleland LLD says, in his Annals of Glasgow, that Bishop George Hay (1729-1811) was 'a member of the Annathill family'. He also says that he himself is 'nearly related to the Bishop'. However he does not give any details except that Bishop Hay's father was a Writer to the Signet in Edinburgh. (There is no listing of this James Hay in the List of Members of the Society of Writers to Her Majesty's Signet)

The Dictionary of National Biography says that Bishop Hay was born on 24 August 1729, the only son of James Hay, 'a writer in Dalrymple's office' and Mary Morrison, and grandson of Andrew Hay of Inchnoch. I read somewhere that James Hay's father was George Hay. As Bishop Hay was born in 1729, it is reasonable to suppose that his father James Hay was born around 1700, and hence that his grandfather George was born around 1670.

Andrew Hay of Inchnoch and Gayne was the son of the Reverend John Hay of Ranfield or Renfield and his wife Agnes Forsyth, whose father was David Forsyth of Hallhill, Dykes and Inchnoch. He married Mary Hutcheson and according to Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae their second son, another Reverend John Hay, was born in 1654.

James Cleland LLD (1770-1840) was the son of John Cleland of Easter Blairlin and his wife Jean Waddell.
Jean Waddell (1748-1788) was the daughter of James Waddell of Magiscroft and his wife Anna or Anne Howie.
Anna or Anne Howie was born in 1718 at Drumgray, the daughter of Joseph Howie and Elizabeth Hay.
So James Cleland LLD can be shown to be the great-grandson of George Hay of Annathill.

As Elizabeth was married in 1717, it is reasonable to suppose that she was born in about the 1690s, and therefore that George Hay in Annathill, her father, was born in about the 1660s.

So we have George Hay, son of Andrew Hay of Inchnoch, said by Cleland to be of the Annathill family, born around 1670, and George Hay in Annathill, father of Elizabeth, who would have been born in about the 1660s.

Therefore it looks probable that these two George Hays are one and the same, and therefore that James Cleland LLD was first cousin twice removed to Bishop George Hay.

Would anyone care to pick holes in my reasoning, and/or can anyone find a primary source indicating that George Hay, son of Andrew of Inchnoch, is indeed George Hay in Annathill?

[DonMcA]

Some additional details.

Nisbet's Heraldry, Appx states that Andrew [m Mary HUCHESON] had a 2nd son George in Annathill, who had a son James, writer in Edinburgh.

Witnesses to the wedding of Joseph HOWIE & Elizabeth HAY in 1717 were John HAY IN Inchnoch & James HAY in Annathill.  George the Bishop's father [from DNB] "James Hay, a ‘writer in Dalrymple's Office,’ who as a nonjuror and a Jacobite was put in irons and banished in 1715"  Perhaps he was out by 1717 and was the witness at his sister's wedding.