Lloyds List (Shipping Newspaper) Help Needed!

[DavidJP]

Hi all,

Hope someone can help me with this as its been bugging me for years!

My 3x gt grandfather George Hill (1821-1903) was a Master Mariner and i have i think most records pertaining to him. However there are one or two things i need to clear up, so here goes!

His records all state born 1822 in Yetholm, Roxburghshire, Scotland. He was born/baptised in December 1821 & Yetholm is correct birthplace.

He qualified as a Master on 12th Feb 1851 at Limerick, Cert no 41.576 & was certified Master Ord on 26th September 1853 at Cork, Cert no 9155. What is the difference between Master & Master Ord & what is the latter?

Also & the main part of this post is that something happened & try as i might i haven't been able to find anything out about it! So, again here goes, I will try to type the 2 bits of his record as they appear:

Firstly from his record of voyages.

C7454 Harlequin 1877; 21.11; 124 - 124,
29.11 dis.124 (sick),   
c 3/8.4.78

I know that 124 is the port number for Shields, therefore he left shields on the 21 Nov 1877 & returned to Shields on the 29 Nov 1877 & he was as far as i can tell Captain of the Harlequin at this time. I have put 3/8 in the last line as i can't make out clearly which it is, i am pretty certain that it is one of the two though.

The next bit is from a huge book (unfortunately i can't remember exactly what the type of record was) in which the writing was entered in different colour's, which i viewed at the Guildhall Library & was unable to photocopy it due to its large size. But i did copy down faithfully what it said exactly as it appeared & noting ink colour's. It read as follows:

1877 - Harlequin Jan 15 M (T?) ashore & got off Jan 23/23 June 15 Nov 21 29Bd

The Jan 23/23 was written as 23 over 23 if that makes sense. I was given to understand when i asked that the blue meant that there had been a casualty & the fact that there was the Jan 23 over 23 meant that there was something in the Lloyds List Shipping Newspaper. I have never been able to find it if there is. The T in brackets i couldn't read clearly, but looked like a T but not certain about it.

Something must have happened as on the 1881 Census he is living/lodging with his Niece & her husband in Westoe near South Shields but occupation is shown as a ships rigger. Now i am not particularly familiar with ranks in merchant shipping circles but even to me that seems a heck of a demotion!

What happened?

Any & all help with this will be gratefully received.

Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

David

[seaweed]

Theres something not quite right here but I cannot put my finger on it.
I can find a George Hill certificate 9155, Cork 1853, in the 1858 and later, Mercantile Navy List. But not in the 1851 1852 and 1853 editions. There is only one George Hill listed there with the certificate number 5037 so clearly not your man.
I cannot find a certificate of Service 1861 till 1870 for the certificate number 41576 see attached.
I have a seamans ticket 44819 for George Hill born 14/12/1822 in Yetholme Roxburghshire, went to sea as a boy in 1840 and in 1845 resided in Blyth Northumberland and sailed on vessels departing Newcastle upon Tyne. I can see a North East connection but the Masters certificates taken in Limerick and Cork seem somewhat at odds with this.
There were several vessels around with the name HARLEQUIN in 1877 but the only one with a North East connection is the Sunderland Registered vessel with the official number 27027. Do you have a 1877 crew agreement for this vessel?
Masters certificates of Competency were categorised as Ordinary and Extra. There is no difference between Master and Master Ordinary. Extra Master, required more Navigational skills etc.
As regards the "demotion" to Rigger. Maybe he took a shore job due to old age, ill health etc.
Without seeing the documentation you have its difficult to draw a conclusion. If you want me to look at the documents in your possesion, contact me via PM>

[DavidJP]

Hi Seaweed,

Many thanks indeed for your reply, very much appreciated.

Regarding Certificate No 41.576, it has the years 1851 onwards alongside it. I don't know if this is any help or not.

I know nothing of the seamans ticket 44819, but that is clearly him. His being in Blyth in 1845 would fit perfectly as he married there in 1846. This ticket (44819) would be brilliant to have, where would i find it? National Archives or somewhere else?

Harlequin No 27027 is indeed the correct vessel. He was captain of this ship from 1871 to the period in question.

I will pm you, but having only enlarged copies of the original photocopies in my files, i will have to look out the originals & rescan them, this may take a couple of days or so.

Many thanks again.

Kinds regards

David

Edited to add: Seaweed, Forgot to add that i don't have any crew agreements whatsoever, as i have never been quite certain as to how to go about finding them. I have read help leaflets to try to find out, but have still struggled. David

[seaweed]

I have now found his service 1851 through 1860 and it confirms the Limerick connection and his Certificate of Competency number 9155.
His seamans ticket is available from the paysite Find my Past.

The crew agreements for HARLEQUIN o/n 27027 can be obtained from here
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=27027
The ones for the years ending in "5" are at NMM Greenwich
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/crew-lists-agreements-and-official-logs-request-form

I await your PM.
SW

[DavidJP]

Hi Seaweed,

Many thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

Glad you've found that certificate. As regards the seaman's ticket, unfortunately i don't have any subscriptions whatsoever due to current financial constraints. I shall just have to add that to the ever growing list of items to get from FindMyPast when i get the chance!

I have found recently a reference to military service within the UK Merchant Navy Seamans Records, 1835-1941 on familysearch with original images available on FindMyPast. The event range is 1845-1854, therefore i suspect Crimean War. I knew absolutely nothing about this, so this was something of a surprise to say the least!

Here is the link to the familysearch reference to Military Service:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCS1-MBL

Am i reading this correctly, did he do military service?

Will check that crew agreements link now.

Many thanks again.

Kinds regards

David

[seaweed]

I think you and Familysearch have read it wrong. He was still sailing as a mercantile marine master in June 1855.
That said it may be worth asking on the Armed Forces board. There a a couple of Crimea experts there.

[DavidJP]

Hi Seaweed,

Many thanks for that, i did wonder if that was right, as i wasn't entirely sure about it myself.

I will ask on the armed forces board as you suggest.

Many thanks.

Kind regards

David

[ashhill80]

Hey David, I think we may possibly be related via George Hill, can you pm me when you get a moment, would like to see if that is indeed the case. Thanks, regards Adam

[DavidJP]

Hi Ashhill80,

Many thanks indeed for your reply, very much appreciated indeed.

Will certainly PM you, so that we can see if indeed we are related or not!

Kind regards

David