Author Topic: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.  (Read 4075 times)

Offline Julie in Ohio

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For those of you with experience looking at primary records of Scots-Irish in mid-19th C Londonderry and also of those who immigrated from that area to the U.S., I wanted to try out an idea.

First, let me say that I know I need to search every possible variation when looking for records. I have no illusions about the spelling skill of record keepers or the transcribing skill of indexers. I know that I am looking at literate individuals who arrived with in the U.S. with good spelling skills and handwriting, and in some cases I know how they spelled their surnames before emigration.

I have seen some patterns that suggest that individuals from the same family may have intentionally adopted different spellings of the same surname in Londonderry.

In some cases, especially after arrival in the U.S., there seems to have been a pattern of changing from one spelling to another and then back to what I think might have been the spelling used by the individual in Londonderry.

Here are examples:

1) One family, two lineages stabilizing to different spellings: Irwin and Irvine. Irvine seems to be a less common spelling. Is there any cultural significance to one spelling over another? (That is, was one spelling more prestigious and/or more Scottish? Would there be other reasons for wanting to differentiate related lines (cousins marrying cousins?)

2) One person, changes over time:
Irwine on arrival, stabilizing to Irwin. Irvine becoming Irvin or Irving in the U.S.  How were the "v" and "w" pronounced? Did the terminal "e" affect pronunciation? The four sound quite different to my American ears. What about "Irving"?

3) One family, different parts of the U.S., a pattern of changes over time, possibly reflecting wanting to preserve the correct pronunciation:
Kerr in Londonderry, Carr in the three different regions of the U.S. in 1850, 1860, and 1870 censuses, then Kerr thereafter.  I understand that Kerr in Londonderry would sound like Carr or car. In the U.S. it often is pronounced "cur." The phonetic spelling of Kerr as pronounced by an immigrant would be Carr.

I am most confident about #3, as I am most familiar with U.S. records, and also know how the individuals wrote their own names (Kerr throughout) and have enough secondary records of their surnames to sense a deviation from "random" phonetic spellings by enumerators during the U.S. in this time period. Spelling in general was stabilizing over this time period, so enumerators would have been more careful in 1880 than 1860. This is more a query about whether anyone might have seen a similar pattern with other surnames: Carnes to Cairns or Kearns, for instance.

My most immediate question is whether less common variants of Irwin such as Irwine or even Irvine ca. 1850 can give me any clues (not proof, clues) about (immediate) family origin in Londonderry at that time. To help me answer that I would need to know how they sound phonetically, and whether a cluster of "Irwines" in a particular area has any significance beyond the idiosyncratic spelling of one enumerator or clerk.

My secondary question would be about reasons siblings would choose different versions of the same name, especially in Londonderry.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 11 April 13 08:32 BST (UK) »
There is really no significance to the variations you've mentioned. It was not uncommon for one family to go back and forth between different spellings or one branch to eventually adopt a different variation of the rest of the family. Although this is more common in the 1800s it still happened much later. I have McMillan connections who chose that spelling in 1950s as they liked it better than the orginal McMullan.

For Irwin you should be keeping an eye out for Irvine, Irvin, Irving, Erwin (all of which will sound much the same).
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Skoosh

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Re: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 11 April 13 10:22 BST (UK) »
Irvine, according to Black's Surnames, is of territorial origin, earliest recording is in the mid 12th century. It has two sources. Irvine in Ayrshire and also the old parish of Irving in Dumfries-shire which is the chief source of the name.
Scottish names in the US, once they've gone through the Ulster filter, yield some strange results, Pollock becomes Polk, Turnbull becomes Trimble etc', Irvine looks like another example.

Skoosh.

Offline gaffy

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Re: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 11 April 13 14:26 BST (UK) »
Julie in Ohio, I wouldn't read too much into the variations, in my own family (in Northern Ireland), I have elderly relatives who were all brought up literate in the 3 R's and made successful livings (requiring literacy), yet still talk about the family history using different spellings and pronunciations of surnames.  :)


Offline Julie in Ohio

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Re: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 11 April 13 20:07 BST (UK) »
To reply (with thanks) to three of you at once:

Am I to infer that Irvine is the ancestral Scottish name from which the Londonderry variants, especially the most common form Irwin, were derived? If Kerr and Irvine suggest something specific about Scottish ancestry, then perhaps that explains the fierceness with which my family insisted on these spellings. The Kerrs, at least, arrived from Scotland no earlier than the late 18th C, with money enough to buy land and set up mills. Perhaps they were, or had pretensions to, aristocracy. One of them married a Betty Irvine. She probably was local, but I can imagine that her surname, however her family night have spelled it, might have come down to me as "Irvine" because that was the "real" (Scottish) way to spell it. Does this make sense?

I understand that I must search records using all variations.

I can see that during the 19th and even into the 20th C some Irwins I have been following as likely relatives of Betty seem to have changed the family name from Irwin to the less frequent Irvine. A case in point is Samuel "Irwin alias Irvine" farmer in Drumacarney, who died in 1923 (PRONI) I have not seen the original will (that is, even a handwritten transcription), but from other records I infer that he was born into a family of Irwins, and his son John, named as executor, and John's descendants seem to have used the name Irvine. They might have liked the name better for a variety of reasons. In any case, this to me suggests an intentional spelling choice on the part of the individuals who went by Irvine. The default spelling in the area seems to have been Irwin or phonetic variants of same.

The root of my question comes from an 1856 Londonderry to Philadelphia manifest in which the names appear not to have been spelled phonetically. My known relatives John and Alexander Kerr were traveling with a possible cousin Leslie Irwine. The Kerrs were two of four children of William and Betty Kerr of the Limavady area. I would like to find out whether Leslie Irwine was her nephew. I have found a match to a Leslie Irwin in the 1841/1851 census abstracts for Ballyness, Dungiven. The forenames and occupations of this family and apparent relatives in Ballyness fit with what I know of my family story, except the distance from NL. And the rare spelling Irwine appears among the Irwins of Ballyness, most intriguingly (to me) in the will that links millers in Ballyness with millers in Drummond, and by extension, to Roe Mills. Betty Irvine Kerr's father-in-law and two brothers are said to have come from Scotland to NL, bought land, and set up corn and linen mills.

What I really want to know is who Betty Irvine was. I simply cannot find any trace of her or these Kerrs in on-line records. Perhaps someone with access to off-line church or newspaper records can find something more substantial than naming patterns to help me.

Her husband William Kerr was born about 1810 (perhaps in Scotland?). He had a younger brother John, m. Eliza Torrens of Carrowclare (the Ballykelly Torrens, not Bann Valley), with first two children John (1846) and Mary (1848)  born before this couple and their niece Eliza emigrated in 1848.

The William Kerr children were Oliver (1832), Eliza (1834), John (1838), and Alexander (1840). The sons emigrated in 1856, Oliver sailing later than his brothers. William eventually joined his family, but I don't know when or how. Leslie Irwine was born in 1837/1838 and later used the spelling Irwin. He was joined a few years later, briefly, by Robert and James Irwin/Irvine (source:Phila City Directories).

To me, Irwin, Irvine, and Irwine sound distinct. If they were all pronounced the same, looking at the carefully written 1856 manifest, I can't imagine a scenario in which Leslie's last name was something other than Irwine, unless it was Irvine and he had a speech defect. Even then, why would the person recording the names choose such an obscure spelling?


Offline aghadowey

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Re: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 11 April 13 20:50 BST (UK) »
You are really making this more difficult than it needs to be. There is very little difference in the pronunciation of Irwin, etc. in Ulster in general and Co. Londonderry in particular. Spelling variations, both in Ireland and U.S., would not have been uncommon.

In future please keep to one topic rather than starting another looking for details of the same people. Earlier threads here-

Leslie Irwin d. 1872 Philadelphia = Leslie Irwin b. 1836 Ballyness, Dungiven?
KERR family
Could one "buy a township" & set up linen & corn mills in 18th C Co.Londonderry?
Robert Gault, farmer, Tamlaght, with ties to Erwin / Irvine, Alcorn, Kerr, Hazle
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Julie in Ohio

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Re: possible significance of spelling variants of Irwin, Kerr -- Londonderry & U.S.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 11 April 13 22:20 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the guidance about threads. The initial difficulty arose when I responded to a thread about Newtown Limavady with a post that included comprehensive details of these people (especially the Irvines), and it was moved to a start a separate thread with the subject line Kerr Family. In fact the discussants in the Newtown Limavady thread were discussing some of these same Irwin families, and it was that audience I wanted to reach. Since my post had been removed from that thread, I thought it would not be appropriate to return to it.

I do have difficulty keeping my posts short and focused, because the responses to such posts seem to indicate that my question was not understood.

In this case, what I really wanted to know is if the names sounded the same in Londonderry, and if there was significance to the apparent preference of one spelling over another, in the mid-19th C. I now gather that in fact the Irvine variants I mentioned sounded the same, and that, in general, during the 19th and well into the 20th C, Londonderry families chose one or another variant of names to go by.

Although I didn't ask about the origin of Irwin / Irvine in Scotland, that response was in fact quite helpful. It reminded me that the Kerrs were in fact only in Londonderry very briefly. To them, spelling of ancient names of Kerr and Irvine might be more important than to those whose families had been in Londonderry since the Plantation. This seems to be very similar to comparing the many strange variations of surnames that appeared in the 16th -18th C immigrants to the U.S. with the much narrower range of spellings at play in mid-19th C immigration. In fact, I have not observed novel forms in this set of immigrants. The variants I am seeing are the same in both sides of the Atlantic.

I would prefer not to rely on spelling or naming patterns at all. I am trying to cast my net broadly enough, but still find some way to focus my research.

Thank you again for your guidance and patience.

Offline Julie in Ohio

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In future please keep to one topic rather than starting another looking for details of the same people. Earlier threads here-

Leslie Irwin d. 1872 Philadelphia = Leslie Irwin b. 1836 Ballyness, Dungiven?
KERR family
Could one "buy a township" & set up linen & corn mills in 18th C Co.Londonderry?
Robert Gault, farmer, Tamlaght, with ties to Erwin / Irvine, Alcorn, Kerr, Hazle

Apologies, Aghadowey. I have re-read my posts that began each thread and see what you mean. In my mind I was asking questions that could be answered by persons not interested in my particular families, and I wanted to highlight my basic question in the subject line so that might catch the eye of someone knowledgable about mills or pronunciation / spelling patterns, for instance.

How do you suggest I proceed at this point? As you have pointed out, I now have several threads that involve different aspects of my general search. Where would you recommend that I post my next query? And surely not everyone reads every post in this forum. How do I bring a query that is more general to the attention of someone who could answer it but wouldn't think to keyword-search for it?