Barney Barnato's marriages- a mystery-plus montague richard leverson

[Marianne Isaacs]

This is an interesting topic for me , not so much about Barneys marriage status but about the family . My father in law who has died remembered getting a Green Morocco Leather copy of the Pentateuch for his Bar mitzvah in the mid 1920s . It came from an?? of his fathers who name was Sir David Harris in South Africa .My father in law also remembered a young man by the name of Wooly Harris coming out and staying with his family for a time . Wooly was there to learn about bookmaking . My grandfather in laws name was Reuben Isaacs , his father Woolf Isaacs was born in 1852 in the East End , His father was Samuel Isaacs but I have no idea of his wife or when or where he was born .I understand that Barneys mother was Leah Harris . I am wondering if there is any connection . I feel there MUST be with the Harris family as why would a very wealthy and probably busy man ( sir Davis Harris) bother to send a valuable gift to a boy he had never met in Australia ???Wondering if any of you have any thoughts on this . Marianne

[JaneyCanuck]

So hm ... the 1881 census shows a Reuben Isaacs born c1872 in Aldgate, Middlesex, eldest child of parents Woolf, c1850 Aldgate, and Priscilla, c1850 Spitalfields, in St Bodolph Aldgate.

They married in 1871 in London City registration district:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
and she was Priscilla Lyons.

But in 1851, Woolf Isaacs, born 1847 Aldgate, is the son of Benjamin and Esther. Two people have been correcting Woolf's name at Ancestry, btw, one very recently: from Hoolf to Woolf and then Wolf. They don't state their connection, if any. In 1871, that Woolf is with brother Lewis and sister Elizabeth. Since the marriage was in the same registration district, in the September quarter, i.e. after the census, this could be the right Woolf Isaacs, or not.

There are other Woolfs born either side of 1850, but none has a father Samuel in censuses.

Oh, interesting, though. Reuben may have been enumerated twice in 1881 ... or there are two identical Reubens. Reuben Isaacs, c1872 Aldgate, is with grandmother Jane Isaacs in St Bodolph Aldgate. ... And in fact there were! September quarter and December quarter 1872, in London City registration districts, two Reuben Isaacs-s (not to mention one in the same reg dist in 1873). Well, we seem to have the right Reuben with father Woolf, anyway. I was just hoping that Jane would be Woolf's mother, but no such luck.

Reuben must have been the one who emigrated to Australia, if his son was a young boy there at the time of the gift? Is it possible he went to SA first? FindMyPast
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action
doesn't show an R Isaacs travelling to Australia at the right time, but there are voyages by R Isaacs, male with unstated dob, travelling to Durban in 1902 and 1904. But there is also an R born c1872 travelling to Melbourne in 1932 -- several years after the book gift in Australia. A visit home?


David Harris was born in the City of London in 1852:
http://angloboerwar.com/forum/7-genealogy-and-family-research/5314-col-sir-david-harris-1852-1942
Same time and place as Reuben's father Woolf Isaacs.
David Harris's parents were Woolf Harris and Phoebe Romaine, married 1848 City of London:
(and I swear this community was as bad as my stupid Hill clan in Cornwall/Devon with their Jameses and Williams)
http://www.geni.com/people/David-Harris/6000000012646217984
and of course Barney Barnato/Isaacs was born 1852 Whitechapel. And his mother was Leah Harris 1816.

The 1851-61-71 censuses have Woolf Harris born 1827-29, Aldgate, Houndsditch, Whitechapel.
In 1841 in St Bodolph Aldgate, his parents Solomon and Susan are old enough (50+, 55+) to have a child born c1816, just in case maybe David Harris's father and Barney Barnato's mother were siblings. Oh duh, they were, as the link I posted way back, in this thread, shows:
http://www.geni.com/people/Leah-Isaacs/6000000003071284013
Leah Harris's father was Solomon, a general dealer, per her marriage certificate.
Woolf Harris's father was Solomon, a dealer, per the 1841 census.
Not that there couldn't have been two of them.

That connects Col. Sir David Harris and Barney Barnato, assuming one Solomon Harris.
David's father Woolf Harris was the brother of Barney's mother Leah Harris Isaacs.

Now, do Marianne's Isaacs in-laws connect up with Barney Barnato's Isaacs-s, and thus with David Harris?? Or connect with them another way? Or not at all ...?

There's a start, anyway!

Solomon Harris and Susan had children:
- Leah Harris who married Isaac Isaacs and had son Barney Barnato
- Woolf Harris who married Phoebe Romaine and had son David Harris
David Harris and Barney Barnato were first cousins.


... Of course, now we google the names together and see that David Harris was Barney Barnato's nephew:
http://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event/col-david-harris-nephew-barney-barnato-partner-cecil-john-rhodes-and-cape-parliamentaria
but I don't thiiiink so.
Right, other sources say cousin. I should've just googled first.

[Marianne Isaacs]

Thank you Janey, some of that I knew but It was very kind of you to do all that research so quickly !! I wish I could find more records of Woolfs birth.i wonder if perhaps they all knew each other at school which was probably the Jewish Free School. They seem to have lived within a very short distance of each other . It just amazes me that David Harris was bothered to send that present given that Reuben hadn't been back to London or in touch in all that time . I wonder if Wooly Harris was a nephew of David's and maybe the acknowledgement of the Bar Mitzvah was a thank you for the time Wooly spent with the family in Melbourne. Wooly maybe was named after Woolf Harris , maybe a grandson ? Bill also said that he had family who were famous in South Africa . This was long before we knew anything about who David Harris was or anything about Barney . We only discovered that Reuben had brothers and sisters when Bill was very old !! Reuben did go to England in 1932 . I have his passport . Wish  we knew who he visited.

[JaneyCanuck]

My question (one of them) as I was playing with that was: do you have an idea of when Wooly was born, i.e. when did he spend time in Australia / how old was he? I might think "Wooly" really was a nickname for "Woolf".

If your grfather-in-law had his bar mitzvah in the mid-20s he was born not long after 1910. Wooly would have been older than him, as I understand it. There were Woolf Harris births in 1894, 1896, 1907, 1910, 1911. There are Woolf Harris voyages to Australia in 1922 (born c1876) and 1927 (born c1907) (not counting any Ws or unstated first names, of course). I might guess that the 1927 passenger, 20 years old, sounds about right?

His father was Samuel Harris, who was aged 22 and living in 1901 with his grandfather Woolf Harris, born c1827 in Whitechapel. In his household is another grandson called Barrett Harris, born c1875 in South Africa, along with married granddaughter Alice Harris, 24, and her daughter? Phoebe, 3.

So that Woolf is David Harris's father, from my previous post (brother of Leah Harris Isaacs, Barney Barnato's mother), making that Samuel the nephew of David Harris, apparently.

In 1881 Samuel is two years old and living with grandparents Woolf and Phoebe. He and Barrett seem to be the children of Fanny Harris, daughter-in-law of Woolf and Phoebe, but her husband isn't present, aargh. And of course Samuel isn't to be found in 1891 ... but his brother Barnett was with grandfather Woolf in Whitechapel. Woolf and Phoebe also have sons Henry, Alexander, Barnett and John.

With Samuel's apparent brother (or possibly cousin) Barnett born in SA, I wonder whether they or one of them was the son of David?

Seem reasonable? The Wooly Harris who visited was Woolf Harris 1907, son of Samuel c1879, who was a grandson of Woolf (brother of Leah Harris Isaacs) and Phoebe, parents of Col. Sir David Harris.

Still leaves you out in the cold but it could explain the gift from David, if it was his grandson or brother's grandson Wooly who was in Australia.

Ah, hm, going back to where I started: Samuel Harris (father of Wooly) was married to Katie Isaacs (1903 Spitalfields). Is you connection through her possibly??

Lucky us; there were two Katie Isaacs-s born in Whitechapel in 1882. The later one would fit the last census age. But they both show in censuses as the same age. In 1891, one has parents Julius and Deborah and the other has parents Alexander and Hannah. Okay, she is the first, since the second is still with her mother when ours is married to Samuel Harris. Julius Isaacs was born in Russia. So I don't think there is an Isaacs connection with Wooly Harris (except that his great-grandfather Woolf Harris's sister married Barney Barnato/Isaacs's mother).

But we still don't know who the father of Wooly Harris's father Samuel was. And that's where we hit what happens to all of us: gotta get a certificate or three somewhere along the line.

[carol8353]

Going back to the original posting that mentioned about being related to Esther Rantzen and her link to Barney Barnato/ Isaacs.....there is more info on that line here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/esther-how-we-did-it_5.shtml

Maybe it will help?

Carol

[JaneyCanuck]

Another reason to be peeved that we get only the boring USAmerican WDYTYA here in Canada, until the CBC decides to do another season of Canadians for us.

The Rantzen beginnings are shown most simply here:
http://www.geni.com/people/Leah-Isaacs/6000000003071284013

Sarah Isaacs Rantzen was a daughter of Leah Harris (aunt of David Harris) and Isaac Isaacs / sister of Barney Barnato/Isaacs, but there isn't likely a direct connection there with Marianne's in-laws her descendants weren't Harris or Isaacs.

[Marianne Isaacs]

Wow Janey , I am impressed. I think the theory of Wooly being related to David is likely . I recon he would have been  quite young as Bill was born in 1914 , I imagine that wooly would have been about 20'. I remember Bill telling me that his father didn't want him at the track ,I suspect that Reuben is what many would call a " colourful racing identity" . Bill was brought up very respectably and wasn't allowed to ever follow his father into the racing business.Wooly  made an impression on Bill so I can imagine a boy of 10 or 12 being very impressed by a twenty year old can't you ? One of Reuben's sisters was Kate . They lived in Exchange Buildings off Cutler street until about 1900 when they seem to have moved into North Block Houndsditch .

[JaneyCanuck]

Well I think you might have it now.

In 1881, Reuben Isaacs 1872 Aldgate is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.

In 1891, Kate Isaacs 1883 London City is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.

She wasn't born yet in 1881, and he had flown by 1891, so they don't appear together in a census.

Just for you to eyeball them:

1881

Woolf Isaacs    31
Priscilla Isaacs    31
Reuben Isaacs    9
Philip Isaacs    7
Miriam Leah Isaacs    5
Rebecca Pearl Isaacs    4
Maria Isaacs    
Lousa Lucas    22

1891

Woolf Isaacs    40
Precila Isaacs    40
Philip Isaacs    17
Minnie L Isaacs    15
Rebecca P Isaacs    13
Maria Isaacs    11
Kate Isaacs    8
Samuel Isaacs    6
Sophia Isaacs    1 8/12

Anything else that confirms this is the right family for your Reuben?

There was such overlapping and repetition of names among these clans, it can't be certain that these were the Reuben and Kate in question, without some certificates -- like Kate's marriage to Samuel Harris, 1903, to confirm that her father was Woolf, and preferably birth certificates for both Kate and Reuben.

So your Reuben was the brother of Kate Isaacs, the mother of Wooly and wife of Samuel Harris, the son or nephew of David Harris. Making your Reuben the uncle of Wooly, and Wooly the first cousin of the recipient of the gift from David Haris.

Maybe.

And Reuben's father wasn't Samuel. Or else we've chased a few geese!

Oh, this should do it:
1881 - 10 Exchange Buildings
1891 - North Block
(Unless you were just getting the info from censuses like me!)

[Marianne Isaacs]

No I think you have done it !!!! That is definitely the family ! .

You have an amazing brain , well done . I would love to find out what happened to all those children . Reuben only had Bill ( his real name was Woolf Allies thanks to him being born in 1914 !). As I said bill didn't even know that he had Aunts and uncles until just before he died whi ch is really quite sad I think .