ASSISTANCE_RE._Annie_Maria_KIRBY_born_circa_1870-DEATH/MARRIAGE_DETAILS ???

[muss]

Hi

There is a John and a William  Sherden in the ophan school 1872.

William Sherden dies Newcastle 1868
Alice 1872

If these are the correct parents of John born 1866 , they were not around to look after William J

Muss

[Leeroy_2]

Off a tree on the Mundia site
"Annie was admitted into the Sydney Benevolent Asylum as she was only 18 years old, single and pregnant on 16 July 1889. Single mothers usully found themselves here if they could not fend for themselves in the last months of there pregancy. However several weeks after giving birth to her son, Joseph Francis Kirby, whom she named on 20 August 1889, Annie Died at the Asylum on 6 Sep 1889"

Annie Mabel Kirby
1871-1889
Born: Ryde, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Died: Benevolent Asylum, 55 Charles Borromeo, Ryde, New South Wales, Australia
Parents
Cornelius Kirby
Ann Ryan

1 ) Looks like it's not our Annie Maria Kirby, the mystery deepens.. I appreciate you finding that information re. Benevolent Asylum. Seems very consequential. Seems quite sad set of circumstances, young Joseph dies in the same year he's born BDM death reference, '1463/1889' father unknown for both birth and death.

2 ) I only have William's second marriage certificate. I've attached that transcript. He lists his occupation as a Motor Driver right through from his 1930 AEC electoral through to his death he also lists himself as a motor driver. Documents obtained from NSW State Records from Callan Park Mental Hospital indicate William J. SHERDEN (B1889) his son was heavily involved in visiting his father John and assisting with John's health. Witnesses for William John SHERDEN 1936 wedding - D. Lombo and E. J. Lombo. Appears E. J. Lombo is Emily Jane Lombo Nee Hill (Clara Silas[BRIDE] - Mother).

3 ) I'll get back to you the orphanage. I wasn't aware of that.

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[Neil Todd]

This story is one of those real mixed up one's.

Annie Maria Kirby was actually born at Dubbo, Annie Rebecca To mother Leah Kirby in 1872 no father listed. It is my firm belief Leah was a stolen generation Aboriginal who mothered at least two children to Cornelius Kirby. One being Annie the other Hannah. Leah Kirby married Thomas Hart in Dubbo in 1873. There is a death recorded for the Hannah R KIRBY father unknown mother Leah in 1873 Same time as her marriage to Thomas . Thomas and leah Hart went on to have seven children across the back blocks of NSW losing their first child Fanny 1875.

There seems to be a fair bit on the Kirby family (googling) one son became a Knight and war hero.

I believe Conelius Kirby probably owned property at Dubbo as well as in Ryde Sydney where he lived with his wife Ann. They had 12 children between 1861 and 1880.  This gells with the TROVE Article on Annie's death.

I don't know yet what the connection is yet between Annie M Kirby and John Sherden but she was not the mother of his two children William and Alice.

Neil

[Dundee]

Off a tree on the Mundia site
"Annie was admitted into the Sydney Benevolent Asylum as she was only 18 years old, single and pregnant on 16 July 1889. Single mothers usully found themselves here if they could not fend for themselves in the last months of there pregancy. However several weeks after giving birth to her son, Joseph Francis Kirby, whom she named on 20 August 1889, Annie Died at the Asylum on 6 Sep 1889"

Annie Mabel Kirby
1871-1889
Born: Ryde, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Died: Benevolent Asylum, 55 Charles Borromeo, Ryde, New South Wales, Australia
Parents
Cornelius Kirby
Ann Ryan

Neil,

Cornelius KIRBY and Ann RYAN arrived on the Mary Pleasants in 1858 from Tipperary.  Their daughter Ann was born at Ryde in 1871.

Debra 

[majm]

Hi there,

Some bits and pieces, some questions, and some links that may help.

From NSW SRO online indexes
Index to Registers of Firms :
 John SHERDEN, 253 Marrickville Road, Marrickville,Sherdens  boot repairs, 30 Sept 1919

Index to Deceased Estates: 
William SHERDEN, Marrickville, died 24 July 1918, duty paid 11 Dec 1918

  May I ask about the chap who died in 1918….  With such an unusual spelling for the surname, was he a relative …. His parents would likely be John and Lily, and his death was registered at Marrickville.     Do you have that Probate Packet?

May I ask about the bootmaker, of Marrickville …. Was he a relative?

From the NSW Electoral Roll, 1903, LANG, polling at Marrickville. 
John SHERDEN of Faversham street, was a bootmaker
William SHERDEN of Marrickville Road, was a bootmaker

NSW Electoral Roll 1870 THE BOGAN
Samuel C KIRBY of Hadden Riggs, on the Marthaguy Creek, in the Dubbo Police District
George KIRBY of Obley on the Little River, in the Dubbo Police District.

NB 1870 Electoral Rolls included Males, aged 21 years and over who were British Subjects either by birth or by naturalisation.  There were some minor qualifications (you basically needed to have lived at the one location for a minimum period.   May I note that ANY person born in NSW was automatically a British Subject, ie Aboriginal Persons were automatically British Subjects when born in any of the six colonies that form Australia.   May I also note that it was not compulsory to enrol, and that in the 1870s the rolls were compiled by Police Officers, and the residential qualification was six months.  Police officers were among those who were NOT permitted to enrol to vote.  (neither were members of the armed forces, nor prisoners, nor paupers !)

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-1/short-guide-1

http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/family_history/docs/electoral_rolls_1011.pdf

http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research_guides/indigenous/instructions/elec_rolls_1903_1989.html

http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/family_history/


Fingers crossed I am not confusing you.

Cheers,  JM

[Neil Todd]

I Think thats Ann Kirby possibly Annie Mabel. Who is this.

Ref # 9502/1872 Annie Kirby father not listed mother Leah at Dubbo

Neil

[wivenhoe]

Does not indicate if Ellen is sister to John and William, but John and William are probably brothers.

SHERDEN John 6 yrs   25/06/1872   - NRS - [4/10786]; Reel 3702, Page 123 Protestant Orphan School (Male) 

 SHERDEN William 8 yrs   25/06/1872   - NRS - [4/10786]; Reel 3702, Page 123 Protestant Orphan School (Male)

SHERDEN Ellen 11 yrs   10/02/1869   Parents: William and Elizabeth SHERDEN NRS 12266 [1]; COD 506, Page 139 Protestant Orphan School (Female)


This John Sherden sounds like your John, and the file would be useful to you. Such files that I have seen had name of person who presented the child for admission, and details of  when, where and to whom  they were discharged.


Your John is a bootmaker, so he has had better chances than most orphans, who would probably be labourers.

If John is orphaned, and in an institution by the age of six, I would wonder that he knows full names for both parents for his marriage certificate in 1897.

These two children, Alice and William, might appear in baptism records at Catholic church ....near Susan St...Kendall St...Surrey Hills, Leichhardt, Newtown....addresses given on certificates, with names of godparents, and they might be close family members.

On marriage certificate 1897, I can see witnesses as Catherine JAGO  (sister of Annie?
4355/1893  JAGO  Charles J  m.   BRADFORD  Catherine E  LEICHHARDT)

and Fred BRADFORD.
 There seems to be a line of writing below Fred's name...are you able to transcribe it please? 
And is John's mother Annie Morrison?

[Leeroy_2]

Hi

There is a John and a William  Sherden in the ophan school 1872.

William Sherden dies Newcastle 1868
Alice 1872

If these are the correct parents of John born 1866 , they were not around to look after William J

Muss

Okay, I just want to try my best to explain this to help with the confusion of several John William SHERDENs, William John SHERDEN and William SHERDEN.

Now William SHERDEN c1829 came out via boat circa, 1859. I've never found arrival papers for William, I've created a separate message board in search of his arrival, http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=641882.0
Two years later, Alice Morris SHERDEN Nee COOKSON arrived with little Ellen SHERDEN aged 2 on the 7th Jan 1861 on board the British Trident. It states on their arrival papers that her husband was already in Australia. Whilst in Australia Alice and William went onto have three more children that survived past childhood,

1) William SHERDEN b1865 (12086/1865) he never married and died 1918 (11631/1918) -His occupation was the same as his brother according to Sands records which list his occupation as Bootmaker from Marrickville Road, Marrickville.

2) John William SHERDEN b1866 (12283/1966) -d1924 (1924/017016) [He's own main interest in this story as he's the lad that is involved with Annie Maria KIRBY and later Annie Maria Tomah BRADFORD]. As stated before and the basis of this forum, we have no listing of marriage just a mention of this on his son, William John SHERDEN's birth certificate (11991/1889). He's second marriage was to, Miss BRADFORD at Leichhardt (1272/1897). According to my records he had two children with Miss KIRBY,
*1) William John SHERDEN b1889 (11991/1889) - d1942 (7918/1942)
*2) Alice Mavis SHERDEN b1890 (25572/1890) - d1891 (616/1891)
BRADFORD & John SHERDEN
*3) Jack Morris SHERDEN b1898 (13060/1898) - d1917 (5945/1917)
*4) Elizabeth Ann SHERDEN b1900 (4274/1900) - d1943 (12335/1943)
*5) Alice Mary SHERDEN b1902 (33240/1902) - d1903 (2443/1903)
*6) Ernest Charles SHERDEN b1904 (13944/1904) - d1954 (21139/1954)
*7) Elsie Mary SHERDEN b1906 (4502/1906) - d1975 (5885/1975)
* Frederick John SHERDEN b1910 (42489/1910) - d1967 (40158/1967)
*9) Sibina Winifred SHERDEN b1913 (41569/1913) - d1970 (14512/1970)
*10) Reginald W. SHERDEN b1920 () - d1920 (13147/1920)

3) Elizabeth SHERDEN b1868 (13538/1868) - d1896 (7946/1896) - 3 CHILDREN

4 ) Ellen SHERDEN - b1859 (ENGLAND) NIL INFORMATION KNOWN ABOUT HER ?

***********************************************************************
As stated William SHERDEN and Alice SHERDEN died 1868 and 1872. That did leave, Ellen SHERDEN b1859, John William SHERDEN b1866 and William SHERDEN b1865 without parents. I was unaware of them both being orphans, it simply never occurred to me that they were so young when their parents died.

I've contacted State Records re. Ellen's records, NRS 12266 and William and John's records,    NRS - [4/10786]. They have told they are both open records so I'll making a trip in hopefully by the end of the week and I'll be sure to post my results.

[majm]

Hi there,

A child did NOT need to be without both parents in order for that child to be admitted to an orphanage.   

From the fantastic NSW Resources Board here at RChat (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html )

Sydney Benevolent Asylum Index - Admissions and Discharges 1857-1900
http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com


If I am reading the Sydney Benevolent Society’s online index correctly :

Annie KIRBY was admitted 16 July 1889 at age 18.   
Joseph Francis KIRBY was admitted 31 August 1889 (most likely his date of birth as his mum was already there)
Annie KIRBY was discharged 6 Sept 1889 aged 18
Joseph Francis KIRBY was discharged 12 Sept 1889 aged 3 weeks
Annie Mabel KIRBY was discharged 30 Sept 1889 aged 18

So, were there TWO lasses aged 18 in 1889, surnamed KIRBY, first name Anne/Annie   Well, that could be so, as per NSW SRO indexes   (on other hand, Anne and Annie could be one and the same person)
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/searchform.aspx?id=74&new=1    …..
Industrial Schools 
Anne KIRBY discharged 1 April 1882

Annie KIRBY, aged 14 years in 1881 (when committal was ‘heard’) …. Parents Patrick and Catherine KIRBY, (of) Dargin Street ….

Cheers,  JM