Mary James born 1859 London

[Brenda53]

Thanks Susan, really do appreciate your help and thoughts. Yes, it's difficult with such common names and when even the family stories are absent - my grandfather, Mary's third-born son, was barely 5 when she died and he was subsequently raised by aunts, latterly maiden aunt Susan before her death and his enlistment for WW1.   Regards, Brenda.

[Ladyhawk]

Brenda I wonder if Mary's parents may have died?

1871 census
Piece:   2089
Folio:   60
Page Number:   45

Mary James  age 11 (1860) born London

Lots of young girls go to page 44 of this 1871 census to see the start

Priory St Mary Church  Devon
Head Sophia C L Adams 39 Winchester Glouc. occ Devoted to Works of Charity

[susan hemmings]

Poor little devil.

I think you may have something there.

I noticed that plenty of Elizabeth James' died between 1859 and 1861 in Lambeth London
and also that quite a John James' died in Lambeth, London (one in particular - born abt 1818 died 1868 Lambeth).

From that 1861 census when John was a widow - the family were living in Lambeth

Kind regards

Susan

[Ladyhawk]

1861 census
The only Mary James b 1859 London I could find was residing in London with her dad John (b 1822 Devon) - He was a widow at the time and occupation is given as Licenced Victualler.  The the other members of the family were
James b 1850 Devon
Frank b 1853 Lambeth
and Mary b 1859 Lambeth.
and and Elizabeth Brown (Cousin) b 1839.

I think you can rule this Mary out mother's name MARY ANN

Frank James bapt 16 Jan 1853 St Matthew Brixton
Mary James bapt 15 Sep 1858
Father John occ Licensed Victualler mother Mary Ann abode Brixton Hill

I wonder if this is the above Mary James son 

Frank James born 23 Feb 1880 bapt 21 Feb 1881 St Giles Camberwell
Mother Mary James (Workhouse)

I'm not seeing any baptisms on line for Mary James born c1859 London
parents John & Elizabeth Jane 


Do you know when John & Elizabeth married?

FreeBMD has these entries

This is the only one I could see in London area

Islington Mar 1860
John James
names on same page
Elizabeth Edwards
Elizabeth Cook

This is the only one I could see with middle name but the date is far too late & it's in Wales
two earlier dates 1855 & 56 again in Wales

Lladilofawr 1876
John James
names on same page
Elizabeth Jane Edwards
Mary Davies

[Brenda53]

Morning, Susan and Ladyhawk,
Thank you again for your responses. 

I was keen on the victualler John James from Lambeth also, mainly because Mary named her first 2 boys John Edward (after father and possibly mother's maiden name) and James Francis (names of brothers on that record?) but, due to seeing John's wife Mary Ann in previous census, then I also ruled it out. 

There is another census record 1871 and beyond for John and Elizabeth of Lea, Glouchester - I couldn't find their Mary after that, which indicated she possibly left home to work, or married.

As you say, maybe her parents had deceased early.  Mary was a troubled person, I believe.  If she had been orphaned, emigrated for a new beginning and then lost her husband to an early grave after bearing him three children, then her life was quite sad.  The inquest into her death determined she had thrown herself in front of a train, following witnesses sighting her previously wandering aimlessly through a train yard.  She was supposed to be visiting a friend in a suburb much further away, having left the 3 young sons with Aunt Susan for the day.  Tragic.  My grandfather, the youngest, was the only one to marry and have issue - there were no James family stories to pass down.

I've always wondered about the "London" birthplace - sometimes details provided for Australian records are vague.  So far away, near enough was good enough, perhaps.

Thanks again, I shall now investigate your info. 

Cheers.

Brenda.

[Ladyhawk]

There is another census record 1871 and beyond for John and Elizabeth of Lea, Glouchester - I couldn't find their Mary after that, which indicated she possibly left home to work, or married.

Brenda - I feel this Mary James can be ruled out as father in law was staying with the James family in 1871 his surname CAUDLE, marriage  John JAMES name on same page Elizabeth CAUDLE 1853 Ross

Looking at birth entries on FreeBMD for London, Middlesex & Surrey these came up, trying to see if I can tie any up with parents named John & Elizabeth Jane

Mary James
births between 1859 – 1861 (FreeBMD)

Shoreditch Mar 1859

Lambeth Jun 1859  - established from bapt. Mary's parents are John & Mary Ann

Kensington Jun 1859

Camberwell Mar 1860 (middle name JANE)

Clerkenwell Sep 1861

I'm was looking into the birth entry below born in WALES not ENGLAND  only because of the name John - haven't located them on the census to check parents names though

Mary James & John James
Jun 1860  vol 11b page 105 Brecknock

There’s an asterick by district for Mary James but looking at the original entry on FreeBMD it reads
11b 105 as does John’s

looking at a possible marriage which may tie in mmn Jenkins
1851 Brecknock John James name on same page Elizabeth JENKINS

Have you followed Mary's Aunt Susan Edwards on any UK censuses to see if that gives you a clue?
Do you know where she was born?

As previously posted this is the only marriage I can see for  London area for a John James to Elizabeth Edwards as possible parents for Mary if she was born in London

Mar 1860 Islington
John JAMES
Names on same page
Elizabeth EDWARDS
Eugene Napolean Lefort
Elizabeth Cook

Looking at the census for Eugene Napolean Lefort his wife Elizabeth born 1839 Bedfordshire
checked 1851 census there's an Elizabeth COOK born 1839 Bedfordshire

Although not 100% certain  I would think that John James has married Elizabeth Edwards
a shame the marriage cert. is not on line to view 

[Brenda53]

Thanks, Ladyhawk

Shall look into your latest suggestions......husband has been in hospital after an operation and I'm only now getting to read your reply. 

I have searched census for Susan and Elizabeth in the same household  - there were a couple but not in London (which isn't a "given").  Aunt Susan's death records do not note place of birth, etc.  I guess there was no-one to provide these details at the time of her death in Melbourne, Aust..   

Again, thank you for your efforts.  I shall let you know my thoughts when able to view.

Regards

Brenda.