William Watson born circa 1854

[Mad01]

Hi
My g grandfather was William Watson b ca 1854 died 1926 in Dundee. I have lots of info on him, marriage, death occup etc but his birth and especially his parents are a bit of a mystery.

He was illegitimate and he was born prior to the start of civil registration. According to later censuses he states that he was born in Coshieville. It's in Perthshire, still exists today.

Okay, so far, but there is no mention of a William Watson born Coshieville in the 1861 census. So he was missed, not uncommon. BUT who was his mother?

Interestingly, on his marriage certificate of 1878 he states his mother is Margaret Gilmour. I have found on Scotlands People a Margaret Watson married a Henry Gilmour just outside the city of Dundee.

I delved a bit deeper and found that Margaret had another illegitimate son, James Jackson and he was looked after by her parents, 1891 census but William was not with his gparents in any census. I also found that Margaret's mother came from the same area of Perthshire that William stated he was from. Coincidence?

If Margaret is William's mother one real problem is her age, she would have been under 16years old when she was pregnant with William. Possible.

Do I accept that Margaret Gilmour nee Watson is my ggrandfathers mother?

[bleckie]

Hi Mad01

How many irls fall pregnant under the age of 16 today!

Before 1929, Scots law followed Roman law in allowing a girl to marry at twelve years of age and a boy at fourteen, without any requirement for parental consent.

I am not saying that Margaret is Williams mother you will have to find that out but do not close your mind to the possibility.

There was 2 William Watson's registered in Perth in 1855 have you discounted these.

Yours Aye
BruceL

[Forfarian]

He was illegitimate and he was born prior to the start of civil registration. According to later censuses he states that he was born in Coshieville. It's in Perthshire, still exists today.

Yes; Coshieville is a couple of houses in the parish of Dull. One was and maybe still is the Coshieville Hotel. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2967755

there is no mention of a William Watson born Coshieville in the 1861 census. So he was missed, not uncommon.

The census is supposed to list the parish of birth, so he should be listed asa born in Dull, not in Coshieville.

Have you looked for William Gilmour, born in Dull, in the 1861 census?

Interestingly, on his marriage certificate of 1878 he states his mother is Margaret Gilmour.

What, exactly, does he say her name is? If she was this Margaret Watson who married Henry Gilmour after William was born, she should be named as "Margaret Watson, subsequently married to Henry Gilmour". If she is plain "Margaret Gilmour" that should indicate that her maiden surname was Gilmour.

Was William's mother deceased at the date of his marriage? If so, she can't be the one who was married to Henry Gilmour, because she is the 42-year-old wife of Henry Gilmour who was born in Dunkeld and living in Monikie in 1881? It's 24 miles from Dunkeld to Coshieville - that's the best part of a day's walking.

On the other hand, I see that William was in Murroes in 1881, and Murroes is near Monikie.

Have you got William in the 1871 census?

If Margaret is William's mother one real problem is her age, she would have been under 16years old when she was pregnant with William. Possible.

Possible, but very much less common than it is now. On the other hand, Margaret's age could be a few years out in the census.

Do I accept that Margaret Gilmour nee Watson is my ggrandfathers mother?

No. You don't have nearly enough evidence to be sure of that. You can keep it in your notes as a possibility while you continue to investigate.

You need to get someone to take a look on your behalf at the Kirk Session records of Dull, and perhaps also Fortingall, just in case Margaret walked the couple of hundred yards into Dull from Fortingall to give birth. The KS records might tell you a bit more about William's father and Margaret.   

[Mad01]

Hello Forfarian

In William Watson's marraige certificate of 1878 it states that his mother is Margaret Gilmour ms Watson and not deceased. William got married in Duntrune, just outside Dundee.

I found a marriage certificate in 1866 for the district of Mains for a Henry Gilmour and Margaret Watson. She was 27yrs of age which would make her born approx 1839.

I did a little digging on this Margaret Gilmour nee Watson and found that her parents had the whole family baptised in the parish of Fowlis Easter in 1854. It states that their first child was Margaret born 2nd Nov 1840 in the parish of Dowally. Margaret's mother came from thiis area in Perth. D'you think she went back to her grandparents to have this child or am I just looking for coincidences?

I agree that I have to search the perthshire Kirk Session records. Are they located in the National Archives in Edinbugh or are they in Perth?

Regards

Ann

[Forfarian]

In William Watson's marraige certificate of 1878 it states that his mother is Margaret Gilmour ms Watson

Ah, that's better. I an believe now, with that evidence, that she is the one married to Henry Gilmour.

Now, what were the names of her parents? You must have this information if you have her marriage certificate.

I did a little digging on this Margaret Gilmour nee Watson and found that her parents had the whole family baptised in the parish of Fowlis Easter in 1854. It states that their first child was Margaret born 2nd Nov 1840 in the parish of Dowally. Margaret's mother came from thiis area in Perth. D'you think she went back to her grandparents to have this child or am I just looking for coincidences?

It's possible, but if she was born 2 November 1840, and William was born in 1854, she can't have been more than 13 when he was conceived, which seems extraordinarily young.

I agree that I have to search the perthshire Kirk Session records. Are they located in the National Archives in Edinbugh or are they in Perth?

Most Kirk Session records have been digitised, and some of the originals have been returned to their local archives. If the originals have been returned, you can still view them in digital form in the National Archives Records of Scotland in Edinburgh. If they have not been returned you have to view them either in Edinburgh, or in one of the other archives whose records have been returned, for example Aberdeen or Inverness among others.

[Mad01]

I do indeed have the parents names, they are David Watson and Isabella Mc(C)Glashan. He was a ploughman.  As expected, David went from farm to farm and the Fowlis Easter OPR record gives an excellent work record for him.

They were married on 1 Dec in the parish of Longforgan and the 7 Dec in the parish of Dowally. When you read the two entries it is obvious that David was from Longforgan Parish and Isabella from Dowally parish.

Does any of that help in determining if Margaret Watson is related to my family?

Regards

Ann

[ev]

Wonder if this is the family ?
1841 Carlungie Monikie Angus(all born outside Census County)
David Watson 20 agricultural labourer
Isabella Watson 25
Margaret Watson 1
Ann Simpson 10 female servant
(freeCEN)

ev

[Forfarian]

They were married on 1 Dec in the parish of Longforgan and the 7 Dec in the parish of Dowally. When you read the two entries it is obvious that David was from Longforgan Parish and Isabella from Dowally parish.

They were only actually married once. The reason why there are two records is that when a couple lived in different parishes, the banns had to be called in both parishes. The OPRs, strictly speaking, record the calling of the banns, though sometimes they also give the date of the actual wedding, so if the banns were called in two different parishes, you get two records of one marriage.

[Mad01]

Hi ev

Yeah looks like them. My supposition is that Isabella went home to Dowally to have her first child and then went back to David as he worked/lived mainly in Angus and between Dundee and Perth.

I discovered through Tay Valley FHS another person connected to Margaret and Henry GILMOUR but they denied any knowledge of my William connected to Margaret.

Regards

Ann