VORNIER, Rosalie Sophie - Immigation to England from France c 1849

[teinesamoa]

Can someone help me find the parents and/or siblings of Rosalie Sophie VORNIER, my great great grandmother, please? The information I have about her is very limited but Vornier is the correct spelling of her surname, as this is how she signed her marriage certificate.
•   b abt 1829 in France. In 1871 census place of birth is very unclear – looks like B Sulgier (see attached)
•   father was Louis VORNIER, a surgeon
(she moved from France to England around 1849, not sure if alone or with family?)
•   she may have been a cabaret singer prior to her marriage
•   m William ENGLAND 25 Nov 1850, Westminster London
•   d abt Jan 1873, Kensington, London
•   children
o   Louis William b 30 Sep 1851 Marylebone, Middlesex
o   Marie b abt 1853 Marylebone, Middlesex
o   Walter John b Dec 1854 Lambeth, London
o   William Frank b Oct 1855 London
o   John Desire b 21 Apr 1861 Notting Hill, London
Thanks

[karenlee]

Hi

I think maybe it might says France B Subject .. as in British Subject ??

Cheers
Karenlee

[teinesamoa]

Hi

I think maybe it might says France B Subject .. as in British Subject ??

Cheers
Karenlee

You champion - I've been scouring French placenames to try and find something that looked possible, but of course you are right - I can see it now. So I will have to find another way to find out where in France she came from.
One mystery solved, at least, thanks to you!

[leen]

What do you think of this Rosalie, she could be yours. She was born in Anoeullin (Nord Department, France). Her parents are Louis Joseph Vornier and Prevost Sophie Joseph

http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/

(Archives en Ligne - Etat civil - Actes - (*) - Commune : Anoeullin -  période  : 1813 -  Type d’acte : Marriages  -  Rechercher  -  click on the image in front of NMD 1813-1823)
(* click on : j’accepte les conditions)

mariage:  Vornier Louis Joseph - Orevost Sophie Joseph  06/04/1818 Annoeullin  (image 393)
   
Louis Joseph Vornier, 26 years, occupation: health officer and accoucheur (is this obstetric in english?)
                   his parents : Vincent Vornier   -  Marie Josephe Leblanc
Sophie Joseph Prevost, 20 years,  journalière  (day laborer ?)
                 her  parents : Jacques Joseph Prevost  - Augustine Joseph Montreul (Montreuil)

childeren
-  Céline Joseph Vornier  ° 07/05/1818  Annoeullin (same register as above image 401)
-  Marie Joseph Vornier  ° 13/01/1820  Annoeullin (same register as above : image 544)
-  Rosalie Sophie Joseph Vornier  ° 19/05/1822 Annoeullin (same register as above : image  737)   

(Commune : Anoeullin -  période  : 1828 -  Type d’acte : Naissances   -  NMD 1823-1832)

-  Louis César Joseph Vornier  ° 09/09/1828  Annoeullin (,  image 431)  (fathers profession : surgeon)
-  Vincent Joseph Annœullin  ° 15/08/1832 Annoeullin (same register as Louis César, image 762)  (fathers profession : surgeon)

(Commune : Anoeullin -  période  : 1853 -  Type d’acte : Décès  -  D 1852-1885)

Louis (Fortuné) Joseph Vornier  +  14/01/1853 Annoeullin (image 41)
60 years,  born in Lille,  health officer,  husband of Sophie Joseph Prevost, 54 years, 

[teinesamoa]

Merci beaucoup for this information. This looks extremely promising and I could never have found this without your help! I'm pretty sure these are my ancestors even though this Rosalie's a little older than I had calculated. But perhaps because she was on the stage she wanted to seem younger. I don't know how to thank you enough, as I have been searching for her for ages.

[teinesamoa]

Sorry if these are silly questions but this is my first venture into French bdm records.

Can someone please tell me
1 what is the significance, if any, of my gg grandmother's Rosalie's parents, siblings and all her grandparents (bar Vincent) having Joseph as their middle name - is it a naming tradition of some sort, or to do with saint's names?
2 in the death registration for Louis, the word "Fortune" appears (e acute - sorry don't know how to insert accent on my keyboard), which I understand to mean well-off or wealthy. Is that like "esquire" in English at the time, to indicate that he was a gentleman or does it mean something else?
3 Annoeuillin in early 1800s, when Louis was the health officer/obstetrician, was a small township of around 3000. Is he likely to have practised in Annoeuillin or in Lille?
Any answers/comments appreciated

[jorose]

1. Yes, it is common to have a saint's name (or names). Particularly telling when girls have "Joseph" or boys have "Marie".
2. It's just his middle name, which was probably left off some of the records; I have multiple relatives whose number and arrangement of first names changes in various records.
3. I would say that if he practised in Lille, he would have lived in Lille. However, it's quite possible that he covered not just Anoeullin but the surrounding area as well - I'm not sure how large an area would be assigned to a 'health officer' of the time.

http://nicole.deker.free.fr/fiches/fiche15063.htm#f105447
 - this shows the family with more children, some died quite young, death dates recorded for everyone except Rosalie who is listed with ? (indeed!).

What is Rosalie's address on her marriage certificate? (and is it different from William's - could just be a 'suitcase address'). The evidence so far suggests to me that the witnesses at marriage will probably be from William's side of the family, or are just friends of the couple, but you might want to doublecheck that. Does it state an occupation for her at marriage? (presumably not "cabaret!")

It looks like photographer William did a fair bit of travelling in his time, too - they might have even met in Lille or Paris, or perhaps she found a job that took her to London. Very hard to track that for certain.

[teinesamoa]

Thanks so much for the answers to all my questions and especially for this link, which is absolutely amazing. I feel like you've saved me about a year's work in one post!
Rosalie's address at marriage is same as William's address (Star St) but I think they had been living together for a while as for the 1851 census, when William was still a shoemaker, they were living at Sherbourne Place in Marylebone. He is aged 20, she 25 in that census. No occupation stated for Rosalie at marriage - William still a cordwainer. I think there's a romantic story there!
I am extremely grateful for your assistance.
Kind regards

[leen]

A few additions to the family Vornier. Louis’ father was born in Saint-Mards-de-Fresne, departement Euse.  Not in Calvados as it somewhere is stated in a cert.  You can find the certs below on  http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/

Marriage of Vornier Vincent - Leblanc Marie Joseph :  x  Lille, parish of Saint Sauveur  06/10/1778   (image 341)
- Vornier Vincent,  25 years,  ° Saint-Mards-de-Fresne, diocese of Lisieux, merchant grocer (marchand épicier), residing in this parish. Parents : Vornier Adrien and Faucon Barbe, both deceased
- Leblanc Marie Joseph, 22 years,  born and residing in this parish, dressmaker. Parents : Leblanc Pierre Joseph and Freville Marie Magdelene
 witnesses :  -  Rubruq Guillaume Joseph,  merchant.   Leblanc Pierre,  father of the bride.   
                   -  Freville Francois Joseph and Freville Seraphin Joseph, maternal uncles of the bride.
Childeren
Baptism certificates   -  Lille, parish Saint-Sauveur    (= : means baptized)
- Vornier Louis Vincent Joseph  ° Lille 21/05/1779 / = 21/05/1779  (image 896)
    father : merchant grocer (md épicier),  present
    godfather : Leblanc Pierre Joseph.  godmother : Freville Marie Magdeleine
- Vornier  Francois Joseph  ° Lille 16/09/1781  /  = 16/09/1781 (image 62)
    father : ambulant merchant, pedlar (md forin ?),  absent because of his profession
    godfather : Freville Francois Joseph.  godmother : Therij Elisabeth Petronille Joseph
  +  31/01/1800 in the hospital at Calais, inscribed in the register at Lille 27/03/1803 (image 389)
      cannoneer of the artillery company named 2e de Lionne
- Vornier Louis Fortuné Joseph  ° Lille 15/11/1792 / = 15/11/1792 (image 1155)
    father : merchant grocer  (md épicier), present
    godfather : Cambij ? Charles Louis Joseph (signature : Ouvrij).   godmother :  Cabij Marie Joseph
Birth certificate - civil registration Lille (French Republican Calendar)
- Vornier Adrien Joseph  ° Lille 23 pluviôse year  2 or  11/02/1794   (image 368 - 369)   
  father : 40 years, merchant grocer  (marchand épicier)  mother : 37 years,  address :  rue des Etaques  at Lille
  Witnesses :  Francomme Melchior François, 29 years, cotton merchant, address : rue des Républiquains  at Lille and
  Demori Marie Angelique Victoire,  23 years, dressmaker, address : rue de l’Arc at Lille,  wife of  Noblat Balthazar Joseph

Vornier Vincent   + Lille 10/08/1821  -  (image 709)
72 years old, native of Saint Marcq, owner  (propriétaire), husband of Leblanc Marie Joseph, son of the deceased  Adrien and Faucon Barbe,  died  at 17:00 in the house situated in the Rue Fivel n° 43.  The declarants are Eycken Louis, 45 years, merchant and Dequeker Louis, 30 years, watchmaker, both friends of the deceased.