Hi Barb,
Many thanks for this and pass on my thanks to your friend. I didn't hold much hope at the NYCMA because someone on the defunct Random Acts site checked there quite a few years back and he always seemed very thorough plus I've used Steve Morse's site that allows you to search chronologically and had no joy myself.
As you know I have toyed with the idea that she died outside the 5 boroughs and gone as far as checking NY State and NJ but nothing at either of these two so if the event did occur elsewhere than how far out checking do you go given the following?
She died 13 June 1916 and was buried 16 June 1916 with a 9.30AM funeral. Surely even today that would take some feat of organising to sort out the arrangements, documentation, transportation, etc and to have all that prepared for an early morning funeral within 2 days and buried on the 3rd day?
Anyhow given that I know her burial details (supplied by Calvary) I thought I'd check whether Calvary hold ANY MORE info that might give me a certificate number or at least a State of issue so I looked at other options including what's called burial permits and transit permits which I reckon is what you might be referring to as 'proof of who's going into the ground'? This was the subject of my letter that I wrote to which they replied to and sent me back to NYCMA and that I referred to earlier in the post. They did say that they don't hold death certificates so maybe no point asking about the death certificates. However to quote a researcher on the JewishGen site and something that might be worth asking about:
"So burial permits and transmit permits should be kept by each cemetery, though they may be stored in various forms. One cemetery may just keep them filed alphabetically or by date; others may glue them onto a ledger in order to keep them well organized and findable, etc. There must be some variation in all of this between the many cemeteries that keep such records. I know of no time that both permits were not required. Even during the flu epidemic of 1918, I believe both were needed".
So in the following first instance surely NYC should hold copies of burial permits if it's a legal document? I've tried to find out where to enquire and if they are required to hold them still but again no joy (again from the JewsishGen site):
"A burial permit and a transit permit are two different things. The former is a legal document issued by the City; the latter is a document issued by the organization or society that owns the full burial plot. Now speaking at least for burials/cemeteries in New York City (boroughs, etc.), both are needed for burial. When this was first deemed necessary, I can't say, though it was so at least within the first decade of the twentieth century. I can't say at present whether a cemetery is required to keep both burial and transit permits forever or for a certain period of time. Someone is looking into it for me, and hopefully I will have an answer for you at some point.
A transmit permit is issued by the city, which is gotten by the funeral home, and accompanies the body when it's brought to the cemetery, usually by the funeral director, but sometimes by the hearse driver. A burial permit usually contains just the name of the society, the name of the deceased, their individual grave location and the signature of the society officer in charge of burials for its members. Some of these burial permits might also list the names of the officers".
Lastly I've tried the funeral home/undertaker route (again from JewishGen):
"Now you will say that most societies (I've used funeral home/undertaker for these) that own society plots in the NYC metro area are no longer extant. Legally, their paperwork, after becoming defunct, should be sent to the NY State Liquidation Bureau, though sometimes a society becomes defunct and simply walk away from the society and the grounds, and don't close the business up, so to speak, and don't send their papers to the Bureau. Usually, before a society goes defunct, deeds are given to their members who are entitled to them. Then they're supposed to go to the cemetery to record the deed. When someone dies, the cemetery should have then a recorded deed in their possession, and the family of the deceased will hopefully have their copy of the deed
to bring with them to the funeral".
So I thought given that all the family are buried in 2 plots which were initially purchased in 1865 (including her 2 sisters who died after her in 1917 and 1919) then a deed still existed when Mary died in 1916. And given also that her 2 sisters had the same undertaker - a William J. Reilly of 104 E12th Street then she might have had the same undertaker also. One would assume that this society is now extant and that possibly the records for them are possibly held by NY State Liquidation Bureau only I can't find anything out about NY State Liquidation Bureau!
So that's it - what more can I try - other than every state in the Union within a 2-3 day distance to allow for arrangements??? And as you mentioned proof then surely either the cemetery or
Anyhow I'll leave it up to you to play this one as you feel on the ground so to speak when you get time weather permitting. I've been away for the weekend over here to make the most of our good weather which is pretty hot at the moment compared to our normally damp norm.
Cheers once again (sorry for the long reply) - Michael.
