Calvary Cemetery Lookup

[carpenter49]

Sorry for the delay.  I have not forgotten about your request.  I have been dealing with a personal matter here.  I will get to finding out more about Mary Ann soon, and will not forget yours.

Barb.

[Michael ONeil]

Hi Barb,

Cheers for the reply - no need to apologise and don't let anything as trivial as this get in the way of personal matters. There's never been any rush - after all it's been like this for nearly 100 years.

Michael.

[carpenter49]

I wrote to a friend who goes down to the NYC archives on a regular basis and has found people for me before.  Let's see what he comes up with.   

[Michael ONeil]

Hi Barb,

Cheers for this - all's I can say for now is the best of luck to your friend - I'll certainly keep my fingers crossed. You might want to let him know what I've already tried to save him going over old ground. A lot of this was done back in late 2009 so I might have missed something out but this is as brief an overview as I can put together now.

The following have already been checked as possibilities for age, approximate period or transcribing errors:

13 Jan age 75 Manhattan #1652 - was definitely Jan and low certificate numbers come at the beginning of year
22 June age 70 Manhattan #18923 - wrong parents
30 June age 78 Brooklyn #13651 - wrong parents

The chap I used to correspond with on the Random Acts site before it stopped checked the alphabetical indexes at the NY Public Library and obviously these are the same as the Italian Gen Groups give or take any mis-transcriptions which we've obviously used. He did say that the death certificates at NYCMA are ordered chronologically, but only roughly, as they are received in the Health Department, from the ME's, coroners or MD's, so that there is a range of several weeks within any given section of the certs. He checked there too and I've tried the same approach using Steve Morse's system which allowed me to check EVERY certificate issued between 13 June and 16 June 1916 and if I remember correctly there seemed to be an absence of surnames beginning with the letter O for that period which I thought might be significant or merely a coincidence. Anyhow this link is useful for the chronological approach.

http://stevenmorse.org/vital/nydeath.html

So in short I reckoned I'd covered all the 5 boroughs of NYC. A lady at the NY State archives checked this out there and no joy and I thought I'd try NJ State as well with no luck either. Like I said earlier, given the 3 day period between death and a 9.30 am funeral I wasn't sure where to try next or how far out from NYC to go.

Convinced the error must lie at NYCMA - either mis-filed or lost and with no hope of making any headway there, I went back to Calvary given that in 2001 they supplied me with an interment list for the family plot of 2 graves - father, mother and 6 children. Since receiving this list I've applied for and received all of the death certificates bar one - Mary's! It's when I've cross-referenced the info from Calvary's list to the certificates that I've realised that Calvary's information MUST have come from the certificates themselves (whether this information is factually correct or not regarding age, etc) because it matches. So where did Calvary get the information for Mary - the certificate?

Mary A. O'Neil, June 16, 1916, age 81
Section 4, Range 15, Plot D, Grave 3

It was for this reason that I went back to Calvary - do they have any information extra to what they supplied - e.g. a certificate number attached to the burial details that I could go back to NYMCA with? They sent me back to NYMCA which is a sort of neat but pointless circle - haha. If Calvary don't have certificate numbers then so be it but I just wished they'd said that so I could close that route.

My only other thoughts on this now are why was there an absence of surnames beginning with the letter O for the period 13 June and 16 June 1916 when searching chronologically and would the fact that the probate process was complicated have any bearing? She died in the June but the probate wasn't completed until late October - surly that would be irrelevant as the certificate would have been needed for burial?

So Barb, you and your friend are my last hope and if there's no joy then I will certainly put this one down as I've tried but can't do any more. Good luck.

Sorry about the long reply but I'd hate for you to go over old ground.

[carpenter49]

I told my friend that the death index was going to be useless, yet he came up with this, same as you did.

 
O'Neil
 Mary
 78 y
 Jun
 30
 1916 #
 13651
 Kings
 
O'Neill
 Mary
 70 y
 Jun
 22
 1916
 18923
 Manhattan
 
He said there's an error.  He also thought NJ too, but knowing that you tried NJ already I knew that it was not possible she died in NJ.  Anyway, she lived on 12th Street in NYC.

I have found the cemeteries may or may not still have a death certificate -- and when they do, they will give out information or not.  Some will tell me anything -- others act like it's a secret.  This is over 75 years old, so there's no restriction on my asking -- relative or not -- because it's public record now, if they have it.  If they have the death certificate, they have the number and the state of issuance.  I also deal with another cemetery, and they told me that sometimes they do not have the death certs. any longer, but in my case they did.  Hit or miss.

Will be in touch.  I can call Calvary; can't go there this week as we are having a lot of rain.

Probate would not, to my knowledge, will never  hold up a death certificate.  You need one to start probate, be the executor or have one appointed.  Was she wealthy?  Probate comes in when there is a will (and extensive assets) and the courts must see that the assets are distributed according to the will by an executor who must report back to the court at least every 6 months.    If no will, no probate.  In any case, no one can be buried without a death certificate as that would be very problematic -- placing bodies in graves with no paper work as to who they really are.

[carpenter49]

Called Calvary, but might try again and see if I get someone else.  Was told that they do not  have death certificates, but have "death cards" only of recent burials, not early 1900s.

She also suggested Connecticut and Pennsylvania -- but we are getting far afield for an 81 year old woman, unless she died visiting relatives.

Did you try 518-474-3075?  That's New York State for the non-NYC death records.

Calvary gave me these two sites:

http://www.ct.gov/dph/site/default.asp

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/death_certificates/14122

I'm sure "proofs" are no longer required as to need, status and relationship.  At some point all these records become public records and it's not really a certified copy that you are looking for.

I may try the 518 number for you tomorrow -- let me know if this a road already taken.

My friend is going down to NYC archives and he has found children that I could not find, even without knowing a date of birth, age, cemetery -- nothing -- and he found them for me.  Here's hoping.

barb

P.S.  friend asks if O'Neil is married or maiden name?  Did she have or had used another last name?  I assume she was an O'Neil.  He's also going to try coroner's reports in the absence of a death certificate. 

[shellyesq]

Pennsylvania death indexes for that era are online.  More info here - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582973.0.html

[carpenter49]

Did find that in the 1910 census a Mary O'Neill was living in Brooklyn.  Born in 1835 -- age 75 at the time.  Brooklyn is Kings County -- one of the 5 boroughs that make up NYC.   Widowed; living alone.  But ....

I'm having trouble with that site; it's slow today.  Doubtful she moved very far.  And, yes, there is an E. 12th Street in Brooklyn or Kings county too -- as well has Manhattan or New York county - also one of the boroughs.

On second thought, there are many Mary O'Neil's in NY during the 1910 census -- some with familial information, place of birth, etc.  It occurs to me that we should try and find where she was in 1910.  I found one that lived in NY and died in NJ at her daughter's (I think), but then she was born in NY.   Another matches, but upstate in Onondoga county.  Not knowing parental names, when she came over, if she had children and a name or name of a child, I cannot trace her history in NY.  You might want to give that a try.  In the meantime, my friend will try at the archives where he has inside help.

This is what I came up with:

NYS had their own census in "5" years, except 1892 -- so, 1892, 1905, 1915.

https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=22&recordType=Census

Federal census:  this might help track her history in the U.S.  Once you find her, try and locate her in the 1910 census.  Not all of the censuses took down parental names, but you might have other information that matches her and from there you can get to her in either the NY 1905 or the federal 1910 census.  I tried, but there were just too many and no way for me to know which Mary O'Neil is your ancestor because I don't know if she had a daughter "Helen" or any child name, if any.  These are free -- for the most part.  I managed to examine several censuses.  Sorry this is so long.  I'm placing my faith in my friend's efforts.

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AMary~%20%2Bsurname%3AO'Neil~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1835-1835~%20%2Bresidence_place%3A%22New%20York%22~%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1916-1916~

Or try your own search with what you know.  The site has been very slow or times out today.

https://familysearch.org/search

[carpenter49]

Sorry, no luck.  My friend just called and said he looked in all 5 boroughs that comprise New York City and there's no record of her death here.  He thinks she died somewhere else, maybe within New York.

I will try the 518 number tomorrow and see what goes there.

As I said, earlier, I did find a Mary O'Neill whose residence was New York but appeared to have died while with her daughter in New Jersey.  Now I don't recall her place of birth but, for some reason, I discounted her as being the one.  Sorry we could not find her here.