how to trace people from Ireland to Australia, marriage banns

[majm]

It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage

I think you will find that the wiki article is referring to the practices of the Church of England parishes in ENGLAND.   

That's true, JM, but wasn't/isn't the requirement for the reading of the banns the same for CofE as it was/is for Presbyterians?

Agree Prue, B U T .....

In England, there are extant records easily available for the records of the dates the Banns were read/called etc.   In NSW the requirement of 3 successive Sundays was NOT enforced in any denomination due in the most part to the tyranny of distance v the small population v the low numbers of clergy.   In NSW there is scant extant records re calling of Banns.   There are some records of the issuing of marriage licences .... eg where one of the parties was currently serving a sentence of transportation or where one of the parties was a widower/widow.   May I briefly note that until about 1860 in NSW (so this applies at least to Victoria until 1851 and to Qld until 1859) that the term "widower/widow" had a broader meaning than just a person whose marriage ended with the death of their spouse.

Cheers,  JM   

[majm]

Thank you so much.

The names I have are for a Bridget McDonald.  She states on one of childrens birth certificates that she was from Dublin, and her age in 1862 was 38.  Her death certificates states that she had been living in nsw since 1840.  She married a Francis Morris in 1848 by banns in the Scots Presbyterian church.  She signs her name with an x mark.  On the marriage banns she is a spinster and a member of the scots church.  Witnesses at the wedding were John McIntosh and Jane McIntosh.  The other one is Francis Morris, on all his childrens birth certificates he states he came from Limerick and was a house painter.  His age in 1862 is 42.  They were living in Goulburn Street, Sydney in 1862.  On his death certificate he puts the year of arrival in nsw as 1839, per Morentia.  The death certificate was not filled out by a relative.  His occupation is a painter on his death certificate.

May I please ask which document do you hold that gives you this information?  May I also please ask for the name of the clergyman performing the 1848 ceremony and the address where the service was performed?    Not all clergymen interpreted their Church Laws in exactly the same way, there's some issues around marriages pre the Gold Rushes and the ways the clergy recorded the details in a) church registers and b) their own diaries.   

Some diaries are held at the NSW State Records Office Archives.

Cheers,  JM 

[FamilyDet]

The document is a transcription I purchased from nsw bdm.  It doesn't have a lot of information on it.  The only address it has for place is Sydney and below that is married by banns.  The minister was a John McGarvie, Presbyterian.  Her status says spinster, member of the Scots Church.

[majm]

Hi,

I have had a quick look on the NSW BDM website and as per usual for marriages BEFORE civil registration commenced, there's two records of the 1848 marriage for Fancis and Bridget.  One event, two different index references.   Sorry if I am getting too specific but ....

This is because of the NSW government's then requirement that a record of each baptism, burial and wedding was to be transmitted to the NSW Chaplains.  This requirement dates back to the era of Governor Macquarie (1810-1821).    So, what is on ONE record can often be slightly different from what is on the OTHER record.   

1848 marriage
Volume 73B line 1642
and
Volume 78, line 765

which of the above references is the document's reference please. 

However, in either instance, it is unlikely to learn the names of the parents of either the bride or groom from those records.  If either the bride or groom were not yet 21 years of age (ie classified legally as an 'infant' in 19thC or as a 'minor' in early 20thC until turning 21) then the name of the person (and relationship) giving consent is recorded on the mc.



Cheers,  JM

[majm]

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexesold/searchform.aspx?id=45

Rev

The document is a transcription I purchased from nsw bdm.  It doesn't have a lot of information on it.  The only address it has for place is Sydney and below that is married by banns.  The minister was a John McGarvie, Presbyterian.  Her status says spinster, member of the Scots Church.

Some of the Rev McGarvie's papers are held at the NSW SRO.   Fingers crossed that includes his 1848 diary entries.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Rev Dr John McGarvie, DD
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcgarvie-john-2399 

St Andrews in 1848
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600151h.html

Sorry for the sidetrack,  I am sure you are more interested in finding confirmation that Francis MORRIS marriage to Bridget McDONALD is the one that is for your family.

Cheers,  JM

[FamilyDet]

Thank you so much for all your help, learning a lot.  The Ref No. was vol 78 No 765.  I was hoping that there would have been a lot more information than was on there.  Have been doing a bit of research on Francis Morris, trying to find out how he arrived here and thought he could have been a convict.  Do you know if that would have had to be recorded?

[majm]

Re if Francis had been transported under a sentence.

This is not something that would be listed on a marriage record for 1848 UNLESS the marriage was noted "permission of the governor".   As transportation to NSW had effectively ceased in 1840, and as the majority of sentences were for 7 years, the number of persons living in NSW in 1848 who were still serving 'time' was actually quite small in respect of the general population.   So, as the marriage was by banns, may I suggest it is not likely that either the bride or the groom were under any then current sentence.   That does not give complete proof that they had come free, nor that they had previously completed time as a convict (either for a conviction of a court in NSW or Van Diemens Land or been transported as a convict).   But it can be a good indication that neither the bride nor the groom were 'convicts'.   

I doubt there will be greater detail on the other indexed document held by NSW BDM.   If you are in Sydney NSW, perhaps you could go to the NSW State Library in Macquarie St, and go to the reels of film in the family history section and actually look at the two images for the marriage records (vol 78 and vol 73B most likely on different reels).  HOWEVER,  you are not permitted to take away any image of those documents.  BUT .... sometimes the clergy made notes outside the margins, and of course, you are looking at the image rather than at a transcription of the image, so you can see the signatures (or their marks) of the bride, groom and the two witnesses.  BUT again I stress, you don't learn the vital clues re the parents of the bride/groom from those ECRs held either by NSW BDM or NSW SL.

Perhaps you should consider contacting the archivist for St Andrews Church ?  They may have Rev McGarvie's private papers or perhaps the TWO registers from 1848 ?

 http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-NSW/2010-01/1264060133   

Cheers,  JM

[FamilyDet]

Thank you for all the information.  I will see if I can contact the archivist for St Andrews Church.  Hopefully that will provide a bit more information.  I think I may be off the track with who I thought Francis Morris might have been.  Had found a convict that seemed to match with him and was thinking it could be him. Sounds like it probably isn't.