how to trace people from Ireland to Australia, marriage banns

[KGarrad]

It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage

I think you will find that the wiki article is referring to the practices of the Church of England parishes in ENGLAND.   

Not at all! If you read the article it mentions USA, Canada, Belgium and Netherlands also.
It also explains that banns originated in the Catholic Church, dating from 1215, and abolished in 1983.

OP mentioned marriage by banns - so I attempted to explain what banns were.

[Dundee]

I think I may be off the track with who I thought Francis Morris might have been.  Had found a convict that seemed to match with him and was thinking it could be him. Sounds like it probably isn't.

Oh I don't know, if I was a betting person I wouldn't mind putting a bit on him!!

The trial in 1838 (what a confusing story!)

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-362-18381217&div=t18381217-362#highlight

Printed Indents, Ship Barrosa, arrived NSW 8 Dec 1839

Francis MORRIS
Aged 23
Read and write
Protestant
Married, 1 female child
Native of County Limerick
Occupation: Painter and Glazier
Offence: Stealing a watch
Tried: Central Criminal Court, 17 December 1838
Sentence: 10 years
No former convictions
5ft 7Όins
Fair, ruddy, and freckled
Hair: Light sandy brown
Eyes: Grey to blue

There is also an extensive physical description.  I cannot see a free cert or a pardon for him at the moment, and I possibly know why.  On 4 Jan 1847 he was issued with a ticket of leave and was to stay within the Maitland area.  On 27 March 1849 the TOL was cancelled as he had absconded from the district and was still at large.  There is no time frame given, but I am guessing that it was before his marriage in Sydney.  There is a reference to a Colonial Secretary's letter 49/1315. 

Francis was admitted to prison eight times in the following years, and his ship and occupation are always noted.  The only two which I can find definite reasons for are both in 1864 - for the assault and attempted rape of his daughter Louisa (acquitted and discharged), and I wonder if there was a bit of bad blood going on between him and his wife because the other was for refusing to obey a magisterial order for the maintenance of his wife.  http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13100733

As his daughter's name was Louisa (she is named in the Police Gazette) and she was under 11 years of age, would we agree that this is your Francis?

I must say though, you would have thought that he would change his name when he married!

The gaol admission years were 1856 (twice), 1858 (twice), 1859, December 1860 (discharged in March 1861), as well as the two times in 1864, just in case anyone wants to try and find his crimes. 

Debra 

[FamilyDet]

Just read through all your information Debra.  Thank you, thank you.  Can I ask, how you found all the information about his convictions and especially the daughter, Louisa.   With this information I think the case might be cracked.  The other thing that put me off with finding him was on the marriage banns he states that he is a bachelor.  After reading all the things that he did, I am thinking telling a lie wasn't that important to him.  Can not thank you enough!

[majm]

Trying not to sidetrack, but re the wiki banns article

! If you read the article it mentions USA, Canada, Belgium and Netherlands also.
It also explains that banns originated in the Catholic Church, dating from 1215, and abolished in 1983.

Yes, I read the article at the time I first replied on this thread.   I noticed that it specifically noted that :

"In England, under the provisions of Lord Hardwicke's Act of 1753, a marriage was only legally valid if the banns had been called or a marriage licence had been obtained, codifying earlier practice within the Church of England. By this statute, 26 Geo. II, c.33, the banns were required to be read aloud on three Sundays before the wedding ceremony, in the home parish churches of both parties"
and
"United States
 
Lord Hardwicke's Act did not extend outside England and Wales, and hence did not become law in the colonies that would later become the United States of America. For this reason, and as a consequence of the American separation of church and state, banns or equivalent notice by publication is not required before marriage ....."

The marriage our OP is referring to was in Sydney NSW Australia in 1848, so as I mentioned earlier, the English laws post 1823 were without effect in NSW unless they specifically mentioned they were to have effect in Colony.  (NSW and VDL had their own Supreme Courts from 1823)

Cheers,  JM   

[majm]

Yes, Debra could well have found the right Francis.... 

Sometimes on the reels of film at NSW State Library their images of marriages shows information that the clergyman notes down in the "white space" on the register.   When this occurs, the clergy sometimes recorded the ages of the bride and the groom in the white space to the left of the section where the bride and the groom sign their names!

Have a look at the images for 1848 for the Church of England, for Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle (NSW)..... and notice the white spaces near these signatures.    That's where some clergy at some times noted the ages of the bride and groom.

The images are linked via RChat's NSW Resources Board
 http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html

and then
 
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register


Yes, that's for C of E records, and the 1848 marriage MORRIS=MCDONALD was Presbyterian, but perhaps when you are contacting the archivist, you could also ask if Rev McGarvie kept any Family History Sheets and if so, do they hold these too?   C of E clergy often maintained family sheets and sometimes these included the names of the ships of arrival for both bride and groom .....  Fingers and toes crossed here !

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Francis Morris, on all his childrens birth certificates he states he came from Limerick and was a house painter.  His age in 1862 is 42.  They were living in Goulburn Street, Sydney in 1862.  On his death certificate he puts the year of arrival in nsw as 1839, per Morentia.  The death certificate was not filled out by a relative.  His occupation is a painter on his death certificate.

I think this clue (Morentia) is worth following up.  Perhaps the crew/passenger list is available 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31721649  5 Sept 1838 The Colonist mentions that vessel 

ADD
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/browselist.html  I am adding this link with some hesitancy ... it is NOT keyword searchable.  It is full of newspapers for the 1840s including several from 1839    BUT it needs huge buckets of patience to find details.  At least it is better than the former way of physically going to a library and going through their archives, cause this way at least you can shout out to OH and ask for a cuppa !

Cheers,  JM

[Dundee]

Hi JM,

I have to have a lie down after looking at that page!  I think the word is "Florentia"??  I have been unable to find a reference to the Morentia or anything like it.  There is a list of ships into NSW here  http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-immigration-and-shipping-records/index-to-vessels-arriving-in-sydney

Debra 

[majm]

     I am still trying to figure out "Morentia" too (I had tried to find some patience with the old ferguson website, but trove has made me a tad lazy ... shhhhh, please don't dobb) ....  I have quite a collection of NSW BDM certs, and official transcripts in my hoard, but so far, I have only found 3 that actually include the name of the ship of arrival    and among my various fh buffs, I know it is quite a rare thing to actually find noted on NSW BDM dc registrations. 

I wonder if our OP has an official transcription or if the information giving that ship's name is being read from the original longhand on an actual NSW BDM dc?

If it is from the longhand, then perhaps our OP could take a snip of that section and post it as an attachment on this thread, for some RChatters to offer to decipher?

Cheers,  JM

[Dundee]

I was thinking that he died in an institution as there is sometimes lots of extra info on death certs such as the name of the ship.

It does not apply to this particular query, but for a short time the pre-printed burial registers in NSW had a column headed "Quality or profession, if bond, ship's name".  I have never ascertained exactly which years, but it was around the early 1840's, and most clergy filled in that column whether the deceased was a convict or an immigrant, and also added info that you wouldn't normally find at that time.  See http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/2504041539/sizes/l/in/set-72157605132739200/  That is why it is always important to look at every document even if you think it won't have much info.

Debra