Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?

[RDConradie]

Hi Catharina (anicalouw), or should I say, "my cousin"!. Do you perhaps have any sources corroborating your side of the family's DOB and DOD and/or a family tree? If you have been following the posts we have some discrepancies which we need to figure out... Glad to hear from you!

[anicalouw]

RDConradie, in my small research Edward was born March 24, 1876 from Coburg, Victoria Australia and death in Kalkbaai his grave is in the methodist church. ( parent James Douglas Landells and Sarah Jane Landells ( Singleton). His wife Elizabeth Landells ( Born Cutting) born 1880 from Victoria death "from" 1903 in South Africa. They had 4 children, Douglas , Millicent, Adelaide Dorothy ( my Granny) and Hilda. And there are 11 siblings mentioned in FamilySearch Family Tree.
Adelaide Dorothy Louw ( born Landells) born 1902 married my Grandpa Hermanus Petrus Bosman Louw. They had 4 children my father Eric Edward Lionel Louw born 17/09/1925 died 18/06/2014 in the Strand,Western Cape where I was born and where his parents lived. I have a brother Eric ( Jacobsdal Free State) and sister Marina ( houses all over South Africa)
According to the letter my Mother wrote before she died, my father knew his Australian Grandparents, but not even their names. His Mother Adelaide went back to Australia apparently twice, and the children were fostered in between those times, my grand father could not cope. All ties with her broke, I was never introduced to her. My grandfather Hermanus's tree I do have. Unfortunately my father was very embarrassed by his parents and their poverty that we as grandchildren had nothing to do with them. I knew where my grandfather lived in the Strand because on the very occasional visit I was asked to wait in the car(?), and the best story about my Australian grand mother was on a visit to the cinema with my father ( who had his own seat?!) I asked him why the lady showing us the seats is always so friendly to me, his answer "she is your grand mother!!!"

[westernwombat]

Hi Westernwombat. There is the discrepancy between the fist listed children and the later ones which I need to research further, but I do know that the Landells are relatives because of the birthday book and Elizabeth's neice (Thomas' daughter, Beth) confirms this. I do have the D/N for Elizabeth's mother-also Elizabeth. She was staying with her daughter Hilda Orchard at the time and it us also on this D/N that Elizabeth Landells is listed as Hilda's sister.

I have searched the Cape records for birth/death of Thomas Henry Cutting and have so far found only the one death with that name, between 1920 and 1945: on 18 June 1931. And the death notice of his wife Eiizabeth (she died 23 Aug 1939) confirms that, and gives the married names of all children -
Elizabeth Landells
Thomas Cutting
Vera Martheze
Ethel Flanigan
Hilda Orchard
Lily Steyn
- you would have seen this, and noted that it was signed by daughter Hilda Orchard.
And the baptism records of those are in both groups (1879 to 1883, 1893 to 1904) - though some children I previously listed with baptism years, are missing from the 6 listed here. I haven't checked if they had married and had died before the date of their mother Elizabeth (nee Ingham).
You know much more than I do, and the family records are evidence.
I'm unsure of Thomas Henry Cutting's birth year - 1860,or 1856 ?

This transcribed record gives his age at death as 75, calculated birth year 1856 -
"South Africa, Cape Province, Civil Deaths, 1895-1972," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCZ-H5XV : 28 December 2018), Thomas Henry Cutting, 18 Jun 1931, Wynberg, Randburg, Transvaal, South Africa; citing National Archives, Pretoria; FHL microfilm .

The image is quite readable (despite the tag saying that some pages have problems (9 problems listed!) and gives his age as "Seventysix Years".

Have you found an actual record of birth for either Thomas Henry Cutting or Elizabeth Ingham?

[RDConradie]

Hi Catharina!
Edward Landells DOB is definitely 24 March 1876. This is confirmed as his birthday is noted as March 24 in our birthday book and his age as 24 on the marriage register(Kalk Bay 20 March 1990) . Edward probably came from Australia...not something we knew until last week! But Elizabeth was definitely born in South Africa, as her parents and siblings are all born here. She is named on her mother's D/N by her sister who completed it. I do need to do some more research on her. She is not in my direct line and I wasn't really sure of her existence until last week. My mother's memory is a bit hazy but she does remember Landells in the family as well as Vera having a sister whom they called Lizzie, but she does seem to be a bit of a mystery. Despite Edward and Douglas and Adelaide appearing in our birthday book, SHE doesn't! (?)She is noted as being 20 at her wedding in 1900. Could she actually have been 22 and be the Elizabeth I found being baptised in Wynberg in 1878? Or did that one pass away and when she was born (maybe on the way to the diamond fields) she was given the name(again)? I am not sure, but she is definitely part of our family, whatever. Our birthday book has Douglas' birthday as 2 December (as indicated at his baptism) and Adelaide as 19 December (I believe that is correct per the baptism, I just haven't recorded it yet). Anyway, great to hear from you! Let me know if you would like to hear more or you think of anything else. As I said before you can check out my tree on Myheritage and there is also a lot of Cutting info on family search. I am also on facebook. I tell you we all have stories to tell! I never met my father's father, although he was around. He was a piece of work, which makes doing THAT side of my tree a mission! Cheers!       

[westernwombat]

RDConradie - a question: I haven't been able to locate the marriage of Elizabeth Cutting and Edward George Landells, and just guess it might be around 1900. You have seen it, as 1890?
Also, I can't locate the death date and place of EG Landells. Perhaps it is due to the slowness of searches on FamilySearch.

[RDConradie]

Hi Westernwombat!
Thanks so much for your efforts! As I may have stated when I first started my tree (with the Cuttings) I was very clueless and although I found records I didn't record them (although I have reams of printouts of records!) and then I only found Elizabeth, her mother and grandmother in this last week, so I haven't been able to check through everything yet. It appears her grandmother was born in St Helena which is another mission! Vera is my great grandmother, so naturally her direct line is of most importance to me.You bring up 2 important and interesting questions which need further investigation. I have Thomas' DOB as an estimate so likely I had not found any records besides his birthday (per our birthday book). I did find Elizabeth born Ingham)'s baptism which states her DOB as 14 August 1860. I have some work ahead of me! Once again, thanks! I don't know if any of this has helped you in your search, unfortunately. But it has helped me!  

[RDConradie]

Hi! Westerwombat. yr post #94-I have seen the marriage of Elizabeth and Edward. It was in 1900. He was noted as 24 and she as 20, and her parents gave permission for her marriage. I think a James Landell was a witness and also a Cutting lady. Apparently Catharina (anicalouw) has noted a death (D/N?) for Edward-she states he died in Kalk Bay and is buried at the Methodist Church. I haven't looked for it yet.

[westernwombat]

Hi! Westerwombat. yr post #94-I have seen the marriage of Elizabeth and Edward. It was in 1900. He was noted as 24 and she as 20, and her parents gave permission for her marriage. I think a James Landell was a witness and also a Cutting lady. Apparently Catharina (anicalouw) has noted a death (D/N?) for Edward-she states he died in Kalk Bay and is buried at the Methodist Church. I haven't looked for it yet.

Thanks - I think I am getting it reasonably clear now.
Have you noted the earlier investigations (pages 5 through 8, I think) particularly posts by Cando and Majm, which have convinced me that Edward George LANDELLS was born on the date you have recorded in the birthday book, but was born / named Adam James Douglass LANDELLS.

There is only one 1876 Landells Victoria (Australia) Birth registration:
Adam James Douglass 1876 Coburg Reg# 8239

However, he was known to his family (on at least a couple of documented places) as "Eddie" - eg, in 1882, birth cert of his brother Henry Hunter LANDELLS in Victoria.

Also, in prior posts in this thread, the suggestion that he got into some trouble and may have left Australia for that reason.
I am repeating it here -

Victorian Police Gazette 17 Jun 1896  Page#179
DESERTERS OF WIVES AND CHILDREN

Edward LANDELLS is charged on warrant for deserting his illegitimate child by Elizabeth Harris, 350 Weston Street, Brunswick, at Brunswick on 11th inst.  Description - 20 or 21 years of age, 5 feet 10 inches high, medium build, fair complexion, fair hair and small light brown moustache only, large blue eyes; generally wears a brown suit, sometimes a boxer hat and other times a brown felt hat.  12 Jun 1896.


 

[anicalouw]

RDConradie, That is so interesting, we had no idea that she was from South Africa! So according to my Mother's letter Edward Landells and Elizabeth Cutting had only one son Douglas Landells, and three daughters, Millicent, Hilda and Adelaide, Douglas according to my Mother had only one daughter, and therefor no more Landells in South Africa.