Author Topic: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)  (Read 4023 times)

Offline Peggy13

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 17 October 19 20:43 BST (UK) »
I did not receive a paper copy of the marriage. I  was told that I would need permission from the NSP church in Templepatrick for that. However, I was also  told that there was no further info on the record so  no parents. The record simply says 27th March 1832 William Spence to Barbara Baillie Ballyutoag/Ballyutogue which is possibly his place of residence at the time.
Meggison-Durham, Northumberland and Canada
Johnston - Co. Derry, Ireland
Groves - Co. Derry, Ireland

Offline MQSP

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 17 October 19 20:59 BST (UK) »
Aha. So this is interesting info. Templepatrick non-subscribing presbyterian church is still there. Seems to be one of the oldest Presbyterian congregations in Ireland.

Ballyutoag is a townland

https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/belfast-upper/templepatrick/ballyutoag/

William Jr 'married' in Antrim Registry Office. This would have been because marriages by the aforementioned church were not legally recognised. It seems plausible he married there as well.

I am going to contact them to see what other Spence family records they have.


Offline Peggy13

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 17 October 19 21:13 BST (UK) »
I was in contact with Rosalind Taggart a couple weeks ago regarding the birth/baptism of William Sr. in May 1805 and was told that they have no records from the 1800s for the Old Presbyterian Church in Templepatrick. This is the same as the Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Templepatrick. that is puzzling since Proni confirmed the marriage date in 1832.
Let me know if you make any progress. I  would like to know William Sr.'s parents.
Peggy
Meggison-Durham, Northumberland and Canada
Johnston - Co. Derry, Ireland
Groves - Co. Derry, Ireland

Offline MQSP

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #21 on: Friday 18 October 19 15:00 BST (UK) »
Hmmm. That is odd. As you say some records must exist or else the marriage record would not have survived. It is possible they handed them all over to PRONI. Maybe the Minister is just tired fielding genealogy requests. As custodians of important family information I feel the various denominations could do a much better job on this front.

Do you happen to know the PRONI record reference?

Just to let you know there is another Spence family dating back to the same era in the nearby townland of Ballykennedy. I have fully worked up that family tree as far as available records go. William Snr's contemporary would have been Alexander Spence. He died young in the 1840's. We know of his existence because his wife Margaret referenced him and cause of death on the 1851 Census  for this townland which remarkably survived the Four Courts Fire.

In tracing that line I discovered one of Alexanders sons Samuel was quite fastidious, leaving lots of records. Alexander had another son called William John (who never married) but nevertheless is a potential candidate as my ancestor's father. I have not been able to establish a genetic link with this line as yet but I have not discounted them given their proximity to the Templepatrick link.

With regard Samuel's fastidious nature he referenced where Alexander was from previous to Ballykennedy townland in his mothers Death notice. Tullyrusk townland. I checked the Tithe Applotment Book for Tullyrusk Parish and there he is in 1826 but not 1834. Interestingly two John Spences are also listed. I am thinking one is a brother, the other his father maybe.

No Spences are listed in the Tithe Applotment Book for Ballykennedy townland or indeed Killead Parish in the 1820's. None are listed in Templepatrick or Ballymartin Parishes either. Looking at all the Parishes to the east, west & south of our area of interest in Antrim the Spence family is represented in Blaris, Derriaghy, Magheragall, Magheramesk (largest concentration) and Tullyrusk (second largest concentration) Parishes. To the north in Antrim there is a large cluster in Ahoghill and a few in Ballyclug Parish.

It could be the Spence family was not long established in Templepatrick Parish as indeed they were not in Killead Parish.

It is my desire to research all of these leads but for the moment I have focused on those leading south west. Reversing Alexanders direction of travel. It leads us toward the Lagan Valley. For the moment I suspect the Ahoghill and Ballyclug families are not linked.


Offline aghadowey

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #22 on: Friday 18 October 19 15:22 BST (UK) »
Scroll down to page 358 for PRONI's holding for Templepatrick and you will see details of early records-
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide-to-Church-Records-October-2019.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline MQSP

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #23 on: Friday 18 October 19 16:45 BST (UK) »
Thankyou for this. Will prove very useful when planning a future research trip.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #24 on: Friday 18 October 19 20:02 BST (UK) »
I put some of the PRONI links in the Ireland Resources board years ago-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753389.0

The Ireland Resource board is here-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/ireland-resources/

Most counties have their own resource boards or pinned links at the start of the board.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Peggy13

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #25 on: Friday 18 October 19 21:55 BST (UK) »
According to the Proni list, perhaps we could find William Sr.'s baptism in 1805 in the Templepatrick records. I have most of the baptisms of William's children in Lylehill Presbyterian. William's youngest child Elizabeth was baptised in 1859.  Then according to daughter Barbara on the 1901 census, they emigrated in 1862. the same year of emigration is given by daughter Jane on the 1901 census but 1861 is given on the 1911 census.
William Jr.'s residence is given as Toberagnew, Parish of Ballymartin when he married in 1855 but Ballymather 1863-1865.
I did find a tree online which had my William as a son to John Spence and Elizabeth Ann Cadwell but I am not sure of that. Chronologically, he could fit but the oldest brother Alexander was born in Aghalee as was the youngest George. But William was born in Toberagnee/Toberagnew.
Peggy
Meggison-Durham, Northumberland and Canada
Johnston - Co. Derry, Ireland
Groves - Co. Derry, Ireland

Offline jason mac

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Re: William John Spence (Approx 1830-1919)
« Reply #26 on: Saturday 19 October 19 19:43 BST (UK) »
Before 1830 Templepatrick Presbyterian and the Non Subscribing church were one and the same.  They split around 1830.  PRONI holds microfilm records for both churches.  As they were one and the same church up to 1830 all births and marriages are held on one microfilm up to 1830.  From 1830 there are separate microfilms for each church.  Births and marriages begin in the late 1780s and if searching the microfilms be prepared as there are hundreds of births and marriages recorded in the register each year.  The registers tend to hold name of the child and father and sometimes townland.  The marriage registers tend to hold name of bride and groom and sometimes townland resident.  It can take a while to work your way thru the registers given the sheer amount of births and marriages and also trying to decipher the handwriting of the people who completed the register can be quite a task.  Microfilm quality can also vary from page to page.  Some pages are much easier to interpret.  It pays to know the townlands and also the surnames common to the area which can help when examining the microfilmed registers.  PRONI also hold the original Templepatrick register from which the microfilms are taken but they are not open to public scrutiny and you must work from the microfilm records.