Author Topic: Help with this Testament Dative  (Read 2174 times)

Offline GR2

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 26 January 13 15:13 GMT (UK) »
I happened to be in Ayr this morning, so looked up the Inquisitionum ad capellam Domini Regis retornatarum abbreviatio for you. The Carnegie Library there has a copy on its shelves. I found these entries which might interest you (maybe you already have them).
(923) Apr. 30. 1644
JEANNA EDMONDSTOUN sponsa Joannis Measoune mercatoris burgensis de Edinburgh, haeres portionaria Jacobi Edmondston sartoris burgensis de Edinburgh, patris, - in tenementis in Edinburgh.
(924) Apr. 30. 1644
MARGARETA EDMONDSTOUNE sponsa Jacobi Dicksoun scribae, et AGNETA EDMONSTOUN sponsa Davidis Ackinheid scribae, haeredes portionariae praedicti Jacobi Edmondstoun, patris, - in tenementis in Edinburgh praedictis.
Also I found the following entry in the Inquisitiones de Tutela:
(1186) April 15. 1606
WILIELMUS GAWY in Scrogtounheid in Douglas, - propinquior agnatus, id est consanguineus ex parte patris JENETAE GAWY filiae legitimae quondam Roberti Gawy scissoris ac burgensis de Edinburgh.

Offline Standfast

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 26 January 13 17:31 GMT (UK) »
Wow !  :o  i certainly haven't got this !
I copied it into a latin translator -below.
I can't thank you enough for this GR2.
 
Translation.
 
Jeanne EDMONDSTOUN spouse John Measoune merchant burgess of Edinburgh, heir of James Edmondston proportioned sartoris burgess of Edinburgh, his father - in the tenements in Edinburgh.
(924), Apr. 30. 1644
MARGARET EDMONDSTOUNE bride Dicksoun secretary James and Agnes EDMONSTOUN Ackinheid secretary David spouse, heirs portioner Edmondstoun aforesaid James, father, - in the tenements in Edinburgh said.
Also 1 found the following entry into the study of the Defense:
(1186) April 15. 1606
WILIELMUS GAWY Scrogtounheid on the Douglas - closer cousin, that is relative on the father JENETAE GAWY legitimate daughter of the deceased Robert Gawy scissoris and burgess of Edinburgh.

The information i can immediatly take from this, is in narrowing down the date of Robert Gawy(ies)
death to no later than the date of this entry April 15th 1606, Jonet would not have reached her 3rd birthday by that time.
 
Questions ! ....
 
Do you know the defnitions of these words -
sartoris, and Scrogtounheid - Scrogtounheid looks like old Scots Scrogtounheid, a place name ?
 
Thanks so much for looking this up GR2

Offline GR2

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 26 January 13 17:57 GMT (UK) »
Jean Edmondston, spouse of John Meason, merchant, burgess of Edinburgh, heir portioner to James Edmondston, tailor, burgess of Edinburgh, her father, - in tenements in Edinburgh.

Margaret Edmondston, spouse of James Dickson, writer, and Agnes Edmondston, spouse of David Aikenhead, writer, heirs portioners to the foresaid James Edmondston, their father, - in the foresaid tenements in Edinburgh.

An inquest has been held and the jurors have returned to chancery a retour with the above findings. The girls are three sisters and each is an heir portioner, i.e. each has a part or portion of the whole property. Tenements in the sense here mean holdings of land with or without buildings on them. Writer here is in its legal sense.

Will add more after I have my tea!

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 26 January 13 18:34 GMT (UK) »
William Gawy in Scrogto(u)nhead in Douglas, - nearest male relative, that is a blood relative on her father's side, to Jenet Gawy legitimate daughter of the late Robert Gawy tailor and burgess of Edinburgh.

This must be your Jonet. Her father has died and as she is under 12 she is a "pupil" in need of a "tutor" (i.e. a man who can take resposibility for her legal and financial affairs). The jurors on the inquest have found that her nearest male relative (exact relationship not specified, but unlikely to be a grandfather as it would probably say) is William Gawy in Scrogto(u)nhead in Douglas, Lanarkshire. As it says "in Scrogtounheid", he does not own it, only lives there. His occupation is not stated, so it could be anything. At this period farms were not enclosed and the fermtouns had tradesmen such as weavers, tailors etc. staying there too.


Offline Standfast

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 26 January 13 19:16 GMT (UK) »
I really can't thank you enough for all this GR2, i never expected any of this !

Another question.

If Jonet is in need of a 'Tutor' ( i have seen this sort of note, and presumed it to be just that - a private teacher - ) to take care of her personal, and legal affairs, then would it follow that her Mother Jonet Edmistoun was also dead by this date, or was it neccesary for the child to have a male take this role.

Thanks again

Offline GR2

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 26 January 13 20:25 GMT (UK) »
Her mother may well still have been alive when a tutor was apponted. Remarriage was common with the high mortality rate. Might be worth looking for traces of a second husband at some point.

There are quite a lot of sources available for Edinburgh genealogy. One set of my own ancestors  moved to Banffshire from Edinburgh in the 1570s. I have been able to trace them (Adamsons and Turings) back to the early 15th century in Edinburgh with relative ease. They were certainly merchants and were often bailies and councilors and had dealings with the crown, but sources where I found them include the Register of Sasines, the Register of Deeds, the Register of the Great Seal, the Register of the Privy Seal, the Acts of the Lords in Council, the Acts of Parliament, the Lord High Treasurer's accounts, the Exchequer Rolls, the protocol books of the various notaries, the Register of Charters of St Giles, the Register of Charters of Holyrood Abbey, the Burgh accounts, the Burgh Council minutes. Many of these have either been published in full, as extracts or have indices published. I have found that if you look everywhere it is surprising what you can find.

If the late George Gawy, tailor in the Canongate, who was dead by October 1607 with young sons, William and John, was still alive in April 1606 and if he was a relative of your Robert, then he is obviously not as close a relative as William in Scrogtounhead. That's two ifs, of course.

Offline Standfast

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 26 January 13 21:04 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for all of this.
I've been researching my family history for nearly 15 years now, and i've spent 4 years on just this generation.
It's easy looking back with hindsight, but it's knowing where to look to confirm BMD's in the OPR's when there's no definate connection when so many varying versions of a surname is given.

You've given me a huge amount to work with, and new sources i'd never considered here.

Again i can't thank you enough.

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #16 on: Monday 28 January 13 17:21 GMT (UK) »
For some reason I was not able to see the right edge of the testament and assumed it was because the book was tightly bound. The computer now allows me to see the full width of the page. The "modify" button seems to have disappeared, however, so I am not able to change my original post, so I have copied it again and added the ends of the lines which were hidden before. So Jonet did die in 1633 and the date of the bond tells us Duncan was alive on 25th January 1639.
 
The testament dative and Inventar of the gudes
geir sowmes of money and debtis pertening to the umquhile
Duncane Grant tailzeor burges of Edr and to umquhile
Jonet Gawy his spouse the tyme of yr deceiss quha
deceisit viz the sd Duncane Grant deceisit upone the
yeir of God 1639 yeirs [     ] the sd umquhile Jonet
Gawy upone the yeir of God Jajvi & threttie three
Faithfullie maid & gevin up be the Johne Glen and
Johne [         ] tailzeor burgeses of Edr onlie exrs
dative decernit and creditors to the sdis umquhile Duncane
Grant & Jonet Gawy his spouse In [        ]
the said umquhile Duncan Grant be his band and obligation
subscrt wt his hand of the dait the xxv day of Jar 1639
therewith grantit him to have borrowit and  [      ] from       
Thomas Gla[   ] tailzeor burges of the sd burgh the sowme of

Offline Standfast

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Re: Help with this Testament Dative
« Reply #17 on: Monday 28 January 13 20:36 GMT (UK) »
GR2, thanks so much for all the trouble you've gone to helping me out with this, it's pushed my research forward a long way.

Complete speculation i know, and no way of ever proving it, but i now think it's a real possibility that as Christiane her third, and last child was baptised on the 29th December 1633, that Jonets death was very possibly as a result of child birth.
I had previously been working on the theory - again no likleyhood of ever proving it, that Jonet and Duncane died within months of each other, maybe as a result of one of the many disease epidemics that were going around at the time. Thanks to you i can discount that one.

Many thanks.