Author Topic: identity theft  (Read 8238 times)

Offline rogerlewis

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identity theft
« on: Tuesday 22 January 13 06:55 GMT (UK) »
This query applies to both Glamorgan and Monmouth.Possibly Cardiganshire?
I am looking for descendants of one James George Harris born 20 May 1873 at Pontarddulais.James married an Elizabeth Thomas in Swansea,23 Jan 1905.He was the son of James Allen Harris and Mary nee Parker.He had 3 brothers and 2 sisters.This information all seems to be correct.James is at Aberdyberthy Street,Swansea in 1881 and 1891.At Brynsifi Street in 1911.Possibly the man below was a friend of his in the Army.This correct JGH man does not show anywhere in 1901 and was perhaps in the Boer War?

What happened was that somewhere along the way a Jones boy took his name and date of birth above for some unknown reason. He then called himself James George Harris,married Sarah Eleanor Edwards (my link) at Rhayader,RAD,4 Nov 1895.He is there in 1901.In 1911 they are at #44 Tillery Street, Abertillery.The Family Bible indicates that although the poached info above is written  there,he really "may have been" surnamed Jones but no explanation is given.(out of wedlock the most obvious)In 1911 he says born at Llandysul! He cannot be found in 1881/91 because he was probably using his correct name.(Unknown)
He was said to have been a boxer,joined the Grenadier Guards in 1915 but later transferred to The Welsh Guards.He won a MM.Previous to that he was said to have joined the Army underage but was taken back by his family.
The above imposter died 8 Jan 1955 and is buried at Brynithel Cemetery,Abertillery, grave 235-1-B
age given as 77!
Obviously if a man married under an assumed name the marriage was technically null and void making all 10 of his children illegitimate.
Is anyone out there related to either of these two families?
Roger Scott Lewis ReplyQuoteNotify

Offline andycand

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 08:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I'm not sure that the marriage would be null and void. It was certainly not uncommon for people to change their name such as a child using the surname of their reputed father even when the father is not named on the birth certificate. Provided neither of them were not already married then I think the marriage was legal and the children legitimate.

Andy

Offline KGarrad

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 09:00 GMT (UK) »
Obviously if a man married under an assumed name the marriage was technically null and void making all 10 of his children illegitimate.

Sorry! That's completely wrong! ;D

Under English & Welsh Law, a person can call themselves any name they like, as long as there is no intention to defraud.

When getting married, no proof of identity was required.
The marriage was legal, and the children legitimate.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline rogerlewis

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 10:52 GMT (UK) »
Well...I think that marrying under a false name was against the law....but I could be mistaken.It was a Wes Meth Chapel wedding.I don't have a Welsh marriage cert (1895) handy but what does the fine print on them say today?
It is against the law to make false statements on them.No different than a married person saying they were bachelor/spinster when they were already married to someone esle.Giving a false name would also be making a false statement.
I know too that one may change their surnames legally by deed poll.However,it is against the law for some reason to change the baptismal Christian name.
Roger


Offline KGarrad

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 11:19 GMT (UK) »
You don't need a deed poll to change your name! Honest! ;D

The only stipulation under English/Welsh Law is that there is no attempt to defraud.

This topic has been discussed before. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=625779.0
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline andycand

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 12:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi

There would not be many researchers who haven't got variations in names within their family. Whilst most of them are relatively minor ie variations on first names, you do find many cases were an illigitimate child adopts the surname of their reputed father or stepfather.

If you have a look at English & Welsh birth certificates up until recent times you will find that the only names for the child are first (and middle) names, there is no surname. When the GRO create their index they index the child under the fathers name in the case of a married couple but if the parents are not married and both named on the registration then the child is indexed under both fathers and mothers surnames.

Andy

Offline Mike in Cumbria

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 12:17 GMT (UK) »
You don't need a deed poll to change your name! Honest! ;D

The only stipulation under English/Welsh Law is that there is no attempt to defraud.

This topic has been discussed before. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=625779.0

Is that the correct link?

Offline rogerlewis

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 12:32 GMT (UK) »
The replies to my query are all quite interesting.Thanks all for the information.
I do remember years ago asking a Registrar what proof she asked for when registering the birth of a child....well the answer was a bit weasely...none.... "but we would find out later if the info was untrue through the Natonall Health"!!!(honestly) We all know what that answer meant!!! ::)
However...just what does the government fine print say on a modern certificate about false statements? I can't remember and I don't have any here to look at.
Roger
PS...I'm sending this reply again.I don't know if the first one went out OK or not.

Offline KGarrad

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Re: identity theft
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 13:04 GMT (UK) »
But changing your name is not making a false statement!

The law allows you to call yourself anything you like.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)