identity theft

[rogerlewis]

This query applies to both Glamorgan and Monmouth.Possibly Cardiganshire?
I am looking for descendants of one James George Harris born 20 May 1873 at Pontarddulais.James married an Elizabeth Thomas in Swansea,23 Jan 1905.He was the son of James Allen Harris and Mary nee Parker.He had 3 brothers and 2 sisters.This information all seems to be correct.James is at Aberdyberthy Street,Swansea in 1881 and 1891.At Brynsifi Street in 1911.Possibly the man below was a friend of his.

What happened was that somewhere along the way a James Jones took his name and date/place of birth above for some unknown reason. He then called himself James George Harris,married Sarah Eleanor Edwards (my link) at Rhayader,RAD,4 Nov 1895.He is there in 1901.In 1911 they are at #44 Tillery Street, Abertillery.The Family Bible indicates that although the poached info above is written  there,he really "may have been" surnamed Jones but no explanation is given.(out of wedlock the most obvious)In 1911 he says born at Llandysul!
He was said to have been a boxer,joined the Grenadier Guards in 1915 but later transferred to The Welsh Guards.He won a MM.
One of the above men died 8 Jan 1955 and is buried at Brynithel Cemetery,Abertillery, grave 235-1-B
age given as 77!
Is anyone out there related to either of these two families?
Roger Scott Lewis

[RayDen]

I assume that the probability of the identity theft is based on the 1901 census where the suspect James Harris birth address is given as Pontardulas.  However as you say on the 1911 census his birth address is given as Llandysul, Cardigan.  I have been unable to locate a 1891 census for him.

If he was born in Cardigan, married in the same area (Rhayader is 60 miles from Llandysul), lived in Rhayader I would assume he was born in the area, but why give his address as Pontardulas?

On the two census documents that you know does relate to him he only gives his name as James (not James George) he is also James on his marriage certificate.

There is a birth of a James Harries in Dec 1874 in Newcastle Emlyn 11b 23 (this is the registration area for Llandysul).

I have found a 1881 census (RG11;5433;35;3) for a James Harris (abt 1875) born Troedyraur (3 miles from Llandysul) with a mother Elizabeth & sister Anne, however this James's father is I believe a David whilst James has given his fathers name as John on his marriage to Sarah (taken from the marriage certificate shown on Ancestry).

It would appear to me that the mystery is why he gave his address as Pontardulais in 1901 and not neccesarily that he stole anothers identity.

RayD

[RayDen]

Have just had another look at the 1871 & 1881 census for likely parents for James Harris (born Llandysul).  The parents for his sister Anne on the 1871 census (RG10;5545;33;3) were I believe a David & Elizabeth Harris/Harries.  On the 1871 census David was 27 years old.  However on freebmd there is a death of a David Harries March qtr 1872 Newcastle Emlyn 11b 20, age 28 years. There is also a death for a David Harries in NE in March 1873 age 30.

However with James likely born Dec 1874, David could not have been the father.

On the 1881 census along with Elizabeth age 49 (born Llanllwni, Carmathen), Anne age 12 and James age 6, there is also a John Harris age 72 shown as a boarder/lodger.  Could this be the John Harris shown on the marriage certificate?

RayD

[rogerlewis]

Bless you Ray for looking up that info for me.It looks VERY good at this point.
What you have found about James Harris is pretty much what I have gathered too.
However I could not find him in either 81 or 91 as you say.I will definitely
look into this 1891 family you have found.Another problem was that I did not know what the RD was for Llandysul.I did try Google.Newcastle Emlyn will help a bit. I know too that giving conflicting places of birth on a census may indicate an oow birth.
(I have one of my own on the 1881 born at Lindos Forest!! Sounds more like a football club to me) 

We do know that the man buried in 1955 in Brynithel cemetery,Abertillery is my correct man since his daughter (Sarah E Powis) was the Informant on the death cert. Here again though he was wrongly named as James George Harris age 77 (1878) grave #235-1-B.As you see the age does not mesh with the 1873 birthdate.(Though I know death info can be iffy at the best of times)

(Did you know that a gravestone is the only object that can stand upright and lie on it's face at the same time??)
James was also said to have been a boxer and at some time, fought Victor McLaglen the screen actor/boxer.However a list of his fights does not show anything.
He was also named wrongly as James George Harris born 20 May 1873 at Pontarddulais, father James a shipwright in the Family Bible.

We do have the birth cert for the correct man of that name and dob born at Aberdyberthy Street,  Swansea 20 May 1873 to JH and Mary nee Parker and the marriage cert to Eliz Thomas,1905 also confirms this family as that of the real JGH.
Can't find this man in 1901 though.He appears nicely on all other census.In 1891 he is a labourer but in 1911 he becomes a Publisher's Manager.I feel he was perhaps in the Army in 1901 and possibly in the Boer War at that time? Perhaps an Army career helped him up in life.

Family word of mouth is said to have indicated that my JH joined the Army underage but that he was brought back by the family to live with a brother.Could he and the real Harris have been buddies in the Army...my JH going AWOL more or less quite soon but the real man staying on until discharge? AWOL would explain a false name etc and not wanting to be caught.
Again....many, many thanks for going to the trouble of searching for this man.
Roger

[rogerlewis]

 from: rogerlewis on Today at 06:19
Oh dear....Ray you didn't go far enough to the right on the 1881 ......James Harris age 6 is an imbecile!!!
Of course that may have been part of the lad's problems.
Back to the drawing board perhaps??
Roger
Sorry I originally sent this to Andycand in error.

[RayDen]

Oh dear what a mistake to make!! sorry.  Freebmd also has a death for a James Harries June 1881 age 6 years at Newcastle Emlyn 11b 20.

RayD

[rogerlewis]

You have a better eye than me....I looked also for a death and missed it.
To be honest I don't really know the first name of this man is James for sure.He was said in the Fam Bible to have been surnamed Jones.It doesn't get much worse than that in S Wales does it!!
The next plan is to try the PRs for both Llandysul and Pontarddulais.Even there it will be a bit of a slog because of an unknown oow birth and between 1871 and 1881.....one parent Harris and the other said to be Jones!
The age of 77 at death in 1955 is also a bit worrying.Was that his real age after all?
That would tend to bode well for being underage if he joined the Army.He would then also be underage at marriage in 1895.Sounds a bit more like the lad's real life modus operandi.
Does Pontarddulais fall under the Swansea Reg Dist?
Roger

[RayDen]

Pontardulais is not shown on the registration but according to Wikipedia the town lies within the parish of Llandeilo Tal-y-bont and that is in the Swansea registration area.

[KGarrad]

GenUKI has a very good download of parish names, with their relevant Registration Districts (and years applicable).

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/places/index.html

From that:
Llandyssul CGN 1837 1936 Newcastle in Emlyn
Llandyssul CGN 1936 1974 Cardiganshire South