Preparation for first visit to PRONI

[stethomson]

Hello everyone,

I've posted some messages on the forum before, however have finally made travel arrangements to visit PRONI next month for the first time.  I will have two days there, and am wondering what I can do to be as prepared as possible and maximise my limited time there.

I am researching a specific line of my family in Northern Ireland (have had much more success with my Scottish sides, I am based in Edinburgh).  I have included all the information I have on the Northern Irish line below, and would be very grateful if anyone can point out what I should be doing with this information when I arrive.  I have some experience of searching at NAS/Scotsland's People in Edinburgh, but not at PRONI.

I have the following information taken from the following sources:
 - John and Annie's marriage certificate
 - A Poor Law application made by Annie in Glasgow
 - John's death certificate
 - Annie's death certificate

John and Annie were born in or around Newry, Co. Down; married in Belfast; and then moved to Scotland shortly afterwards where they had children.  A Poor Law application made by Annie in Glasgow later states that John deserted her and was suspected to have gone back to Belfast; however presumably some form of resolution was found as both died in the same street in Glasgow.  The main first thing I want to find is the birth record for both John and Annie.  I have the following information only to work from:

JOHN THOMSON
Birth:  c.1837, "Camce, 2 miles from Newry, Co. Down" (no one seems to know where Camce is or was).  I have his parents' names.

ANNIE TEMPLETON WALKER
Birth:  1844-1852 (based on differences given for her age across various documents), Newry, Co. Down.  I have her parents' names.

Are computerised searches possible at PRONI, in the same way as the Scotland's People facility in Edinburgh?  Or do I have to sit and go through the microfilm?

My worry is that if I have to go through microfilm, Annie's potential birth dates in particular span an 8 year period.  I also don't know what parish or even townload John and Annie were born in.  I saw very helpful maps of townlands in the Newry area on Ros Davies' Co. Down website, however this suggests I could end up having a huge number of microfilms to have to go through, and I'm not sure how much 2 days' worth of research at PRONI will unearth.

Sorry for the long message - if anyone can give any points on how best to organise my research at PRONI when there, or what I can do with the above information to prepare in advance, I'd be grateful.

Thanks.

[aghadowey]

There are major differences between Scottish and Irish records. Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there will be no birth certificates for John and Annie. Hopefully baptismal records will survive but to check you need to know both the family's religion and where they lived (parish if not actual townland). PRONI have an online e-catalgogue and lists of which microfilmed church records they hold as well as useful guides. See www.proni.gov.uk. If they are Catholic or Church of Ireland it's usually fairly straight-forward as the family probably attended their parish church. However, if Presbyterian then there are far more likely churches and not always the nearest.

Have a look at Introduction to Irish Records and My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start?.

[Bhoy]

Hi,

What you don't say is if you've tried the on-line sources for records (mainly church ones) for County Down.

If you have then there's probably not much more to say than in Aghadowey's post.  If you haven't, then if you post more details (the parents' names & denomination, for example) then I'm sure the folk here will try to help.

[aghadowey]

Stethomson already has posted asking for help finding information. To avoid duplication best to keep this topic for PRONI related questions.

Marriage found in index... what next? (Antrim)

Ireland marriages indices - dates of registration (Ireland)

[stethomson]

Thanks for your replies.

Aghadowey - I'm not sure what information to search for in PRONI's e-catalogue.

Buoy - which online church records are you referring to?

John and Annie married in St Anne's Church of Ireland, but whether that was their actual denomination I'm not sure. Later generations were Presbyterian but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

John's parents were Hugh Thom(p)son and Elizabeth Kelly. Annie's parents were Henry Walker and Jane English.

Thanks.

[aghadowey]

John's parents were Hugh Thom(p)son and Elizabeth Kelly. Annie's parents were Henry Walker and Jane English.
According to earlier discussion on this thread, Jane's maiden name might not have been English-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,608277.msg4576752.html#msg4576752

PRONI-
Online Guides
Information Leaflets

You can use the e-catalogue to search for whatever you like. For example, if you have the name of a townland the e-catalogue should show you what records they have covering that townland.

[Elwyn Soutter]

John and Annie married in St Anne's Church of Ireland, but whether that was their actual denomination I'm not sure. Later generations were Presbyterian but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, after which she would attend her husband’s. So it is possible that if they married in St Anne’s then Annie was Church of Ireland until that time. (If you have no other leads, then you might want to start your research on that basis).

You say Annie came from near Newry. Newry Church of Ireland records in PRONI are as follows (this is all on the website Aghadowey referred you to):

Newry (formerly St Patrick’s and then St Mary’s) (Dromore diocese)
Baptisms, 1804-14, 1817, 1819 and 1822-94; marriages 1784-1963; burials, 1824-76; index to baptisms, marriages and burials, 1784-c.1910; vestry minutes, 1775-1948; select vestry minutes, 1877-1909; registers of vestrymen, 1870-1935; preachers’ books, 1878-1957; registers of pews occupied, 1886-1926, and of subscribers, 1886-1959. MIC1/46-48; D2034



They are not computerised. They are on microfilm and if you don’t know the date, you will need to wind through all the years you think applicable. Watch out for possible siblings births (to the same parents) as well as Annie’s

Since you will have the film out anyway, you might look for John’s baptism too. If he’s not there, then I would try the various Presbyterian records for the area, as well as any other denomination you think might be possible. There are 4 Presbyterian churches within Newry parish but only 1 has records covering the years you are interested in. The others have either lost their early records or were not open in the 1830s and 1840s. For Presbyterians in Ireland, which church you attend is a matter of personal preference, and is not dictated by parish boundaries, and may not be the nearest church to where you live.

If you don’t find the baptisms in the records suggested, you will need to widen the search to adjacent parishes (for Church of Ireland) and churches (for other denominations). And there is the possibility that the family attended a church whose records for that period are lost.

[stethomson]

Thanks to you both for your detailed replies.  I have been thinking this over.  I have also come across a John Thompson born or baptised on 10/10/1828 in Carmeen, Co. Down, which seems to be about 2 miles from Newry.  His parents names were Hugh Thompson and Elizabeth Kelly.

A coincidence?  The parents' names are the same, and the place of birth 2 miles from Newry (as also stated on his wife's Poor Law application).  The year of birth is, however, 9 years earlier than I expected, and the denomination is Roman Catholic.

I looked at http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf for Clonallan, which is where I think Carmeen is having used some sites like Ros Davies' one.  Although the above is RC, if I am looking for other denominations, there are two things I wonder about.  The first is that on that link, it doesn't give any information about Presbyterian records for Clonallan - any ideas why?  The second is that for the Church of Ireland records for Clonallan (which I don't think would be much use anyway as baptisms only start from 1884, it seems earlier records were destroyed), it says "in local custody".  Does that mean you have to contact the local church and ask them for more information, or you have to actually turn up at the church to conduct a search of their records?

And by the way, just on the Jane English point, I know there were doubts raised before about whether English was the right maiden surname - which I originally gleaned from Annie Thomson's (MS Walker) death certificate (the informant being her son John), but English is also the MS Annie gave for her mother in her Poor Law application.

Thanks.

[aghadowey]

Local custody does mean that you need to contact the church but don't just land on their doorstep without notice. Aside from the fact that it could be locked the records may not be in the church or with the minister. Ministers are usually very busy and many are not really interested in family history but there might be someone in the congregation who is interested in genealogy, local history, etc. and possibly has even indexed the surviving records.

The Church of Ireland and Catholic Church use a parish system but Presbyterian churches are organised into presbyteries. Presbyterian churches also are known for splits forming new churches someones within another presbytery. Also, members didn't always attend the nearest church.

If you go back to the PRONI list you'll see several Presbyterian churches listed under Newry.

Remember that civil registration of non-Catholic marriages negan in 1845. Since daughter Annie was born 1844/47 according to other records it's possible that Annie's parents were married before 1845 and thus a marriage would only appear in church records (if they susrvive/exist).