Long shot

[LOSCHES]

My Great Grandparents came from Russia / Poland and seemingly dropped of the "official" face of the earth except for the fact that they had a few kids here in England, and only really appear on the records in WW1 and when they both died. (ive contacted Jewish Genealogists and they also cant find anything more)

Joseph and Minnie Ellenbogen - Id love to know where they actually came from.

I imagine that their children have all passed away (one of them may still be alive as I can't find a death entry for him - My grandads twin brother - although he'd be 93ish)

They could've had children themselves though and I realise this is a massive massive long shot but I can only think of trying to trace possible children of Josephs and Minnies children, with the reason being My Granddad moved from Liverpool to Derbyshire after demob in WW2 and as far as im aware never went back I was only 7 when he died so I obviously never asked him.  The possible kids I've traced are all still in L'pool and may have  actually known Joseph and Minnie.

any other ideas would be gratefully accepted?

Thanks in advance.

[suzard]

I think Joseph and Minnie appear on 1911 census - we are not allowed to do look ups for that census (copyright etc) -you can view the index free and they may be entered under the name "Ellenburgh"

I assume you have the birth registrations of the children - One under name "Ellenbaum" others as Ellenbogen

Suz

[LOSCHES]

yes I have those, bit weird how they all have different names.

[suzard]

I have fund the birth reg's of the children - mother's maiden name Cohen - but for the twins (Samuel & Israel) mother's maiden name is Ajovsky - on Betsy's birth reg mother's maiden name is Jofsky. Are you certain they all belong to the same family??

Suz

[Annette7]

Joseph Ellenbogen was called up for service in WW1 but not until June 1918 so only served for a few months.

His service record simply gives his birthplace as Russia - but it shows his marriage to Minnie and the children they had up until 1918 i.e.

Joseph Ellenbogen married to Minnie Cohen 20/5/1908 Liverpool (cannot trace on civil registration marriages - is this because they were Jewish?)

Children up to 1918:

Louis b.4/5/1909 (he died in Warrington in 1994 and his death recorded under Ellenbogen & Ellenbaum.)
Barny (Barnett) b.14/12/1910
Leah b.27/5/1913
Betsy b.10/12/1915
Elsie b.30/11/1917

So, sometimes Ellenbogen is Ellenbaum and Cohen becomes Jofsky/Ajovsky/Arjoski.

I suspect you have most or all of this already.

Annette

[dawnsh]

Jewish weddings do appear in the GRO index.

However, if the synagogue failed to sumbit the quarterly returns or they were late then that might account for the entry not being there.

Either that or the entry is completely mis-transcribed.

Dawn

[LOSCHES]

Joseph Ellenbogen was called up for service in WW1 but not until June 1918 so only served for a few months.

His service record simply gives his birthplace as Russia - but it shows his marriage to Minnie and the children they had up until 1918 i.e.

Joseph Ellenbogen married to Minnie Cohen 20/5/1908 Liverpool (cannot trace on civil registration marriages - is this because they were Jewish?)

Children up to 1918:

Louis b.4/5/1909 (he died in Warrington in 1994 and his death recorded under Ellenbogen & Ellenbaum.)
Barny (Barnett) b.14/12/1910
Leah b.27/5/1913
Betsy b.10/12/1915
Elsie b.30/11/1917

So, sometimes Ellenbogen is Ellenbaum and Cohen becomes Jofsky/Ajovsky/Arjoski.

I suspect you have most or all of this already.

Annette

yes i have most of that, but thanks.. I have my Grandad Sam's birth Certificate which gave me the Ajovsky, My mum has said who the kids were (dont think she met many of them) and all of the ones with various spellings of Ajovsky have the same names so im 99% certain that they are all children of minnie....the WW1 records have her name as Cohen, but this is a Jewish name and I presume that she took / was given that name initially because it was easier for the British people that were filling in documents...ive been told that i was "lucky" to find her proper name.

I believe they left Russia (Poland didn't technically exist then) in rather a hurry due to some pogrom or something Russians didn't like Jews either as the abject poverty they lived in initially kind of suggests to me that you wouldn't choose to live that way if you didnt have to, I might be wrong obviously. they are also dont appear to be related to the many Ellenbogens that lived in l'pool at the time.

having initially said i dont know much, Ive not done bad  but this is where the road ends as far as going further back on my mums fathers side,

Granddad Sam and his twin Israel (another Jewish name) were both in the Royal Army Service Corps and I do have their numbers, just wondering if getting Sams service records would shed anymore light -

[Sandgrounder1]

There's a thread on Rootsweb.  Not sure if it is yours or not. Maybe someone else is researching the same family.   One of the posts gives the following information from the 1881 census:

Samuel ELLENBOGEN Head M Male 25 Russia Glazier
Dora ELLENBOGEN Wife M Female 24 Russia
Alexander ELLENBOGEN Son Male 2 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Bernard ELLENBOGEN Son Male 1 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph ELLENBOGEN Son Male 3 m Liverpool, Lancashire, England **********************
David STELLER Boarder U Male 21 Germany Lithographer
Samuel LEVY Boarder U Male 25 The Netherlands Commercial Traveller
William SNELL Boarder U Male 32 London, Middlesex, England Commercial Traveller
Source Information:
Dwelling 27 Leander St
Census Place Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341867
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3622 / 27
Page Number 47

There's also a birth reference for Joseph.  1881 Liverpool  8b139

[Sandgrounder1]

I checked the birth reference on FreeBMD and it is listed in quarter 1 1881.
Also Samuel (Joseph's father) seems to have died in West Derby in 1885.