Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?

[Kiwi Girl]

Here's her hairstyle.  I have to blank out her face as she is a Maori woman that I am not a direct descendant of, and it's protocol in my family to not publish pictures of ancestors that are not in my line.

I originally posted this in the New Zealand section, but my wonderful moderator, Spades, moved it here. 

[chinakay]

Well, without seeing the backing/surround style of the photo, I'm inclined to think the lady is wearing an 1860s or early 1870s dress...the skirt and jacket are definitely an 1860s style, but the little lace collar more of an 1870s style. I'm also thinking this dress may have been given to her by a somewhat larger woman, because the sleeves are way too long and baggy on her. So while the look of the sleeves are from the 1860s, the thing doesn't seem to fit very well.

The pose is fairly typical of the 1860s, seated, full-body and a blank wall behind.

London and Paris drove the fashions of the western world, and publishers of ladies fashion magazines made regular shipments so a lady even at the ends of the earth could buy a copy and have their dressmaker run them up the latest thing. A woman might be only about 3 months or so behind, even in NZ. But a Maori lady...not sure about that. Socially, she might not be in the same league as an Englishwoman so I really have no idea what sort of fashion "statement" might be expected of her.

But generally speaking, she has a late 1860s/early 70s look to her.

Cheers,
China

[Fresh Fields]

Hello again KG.

When I saw your post first on the NZ forum I wondered if it was a photo of a Kuia. This you now have confirmed. That being the case, such importance was placed upon the photo image, of the living and or dead, that they were very treasured and displayed in their homes, and at the Marae. Even more so than the likes of my Scottish fore bares.

Therefore I would expect the original to still be treasured, and still around, with family or at the Marae, so details about the original should still be possible to get.

To my mind with a date predating the early 1880's the dress could have been obtained one of two ways. Either by purchase, if the family were one of the very successful early trading families, who helped provision the early settlers, [before the local wars] or was a hand me down from one of the settlers or missionaries’, especially if they had been in service to a Colonial Lady.

Being her “Sunday Best” the Kuia will have worn it to all “occasions” and there is a chance you will find other photos, with her included in that dress, which will help with the time lines.

In the case of the location, if it was a public building of that period the wall behind may be of plaster, if however the base board was of Kauri, planks of that width were not around for that long. As Kauri demand out striped supply, and prices climbed, and the dimensions of the timbers supplied changed. Rusticated weather boards started off as wide as ten or more inches, but soon were down to six, and then by 1900 some were as narrow as four.

Just food for thought.

- Alan.

[Kiwi Girl]

If it is 1880 or early 1890s it would be the Mother.  She married a European settler in the North, even though she was from Tainui / Maniapoto area. 

Thanks for your help!

 

[Ruskie]

Here's her hairstyle.  I have to blank out her face as she is a Maori woman that I am not a direct descendant of, and it's protocol in my family to not publish pictures of ancestors that are not in my line.

Oh, ok, I understand KG. 

Alan, interesting observation about the skirting board.

[Kiwi Girl]

Well, without seeing the backing/surround style of the photo, I'm inclined to think the lady is wearing an 1860s or early 1870s dress...the skirt and jacket are definitely an 1860s style, but the little lace collar more of an 1870s style. I'm also thinking this dress may have been given to her by a somewhat larger woman, because the sleeves are way too long and baggy on her. So while the look of the sleeves are from the 1860s, the thing doesn't seem to fit very well.

The pose is fairly typical of the 1860s, seated, full-body and a blank wall behind.
...

But generally speaking, she has a late 1860s/early 70s look to her.

Cheers,
China

Allowing for New Zealand to be a bit behind in fashion and the high base boards in the background, would 1875 - 1880 sound right?

[chinakay]

A bit behind is one thing but 15 years behind is quite another. However, for a Maori lady I really have no idea.

The whole thing has a 60s look to it, the pose and the backdrop as well as the clothing. If I could have a look at the entire original I'd have a better idea, but working from what I can see my guess is very late 1860s/early 70s.

I'm just a Canuck...you're the Kiwi, so the rest you'll have to extrapolate yourself....sorry

Cheers,
China

[PrueM]

I agree with China's date estimate.  The whole setup of the photograph, as she says, is definitive for the 1860s or very early 1870s.  Bear in mind that the background may not be a real wall - photo studios usually had numerous backdrops to choose from.  Have a look at these, from the mid 1860s in England: http://www.cartes.fsnet.co.uk/date/a1866.htm  You'll see very wide skirting boards there, too.  I don't think it's necessarily a kauri plank (thought of course it could be).

Photographers all over the world tried to keep up with the latest trends and those in NZ were no exception, so I would not expect an 1880s photographer to be still taking simple photographs like this.

The dress is very definitely 1860s in style and certainly made for someone much larger than this lady.

I am a bit confused by the description of the photo as blue-black with sepia edges as this doesn't sound like a typical 1860s/70s photo to me - it may be that this is a 20th century reprint of the earlier one, which would have been a yellow-brown tone all over.

[Kiwi Girl]

Yes, This is a a copy of a copy.  I haven't seen the original, just been told it was a black and white that had sepia'd along the edges.  Odds are the original is in a Meeting House, but until I find out who she is, I can't check the Meeting Houses - they are quite a long way from me.  the copy I took this from is in a modern frame, but it looked to have been a photo of a photo that was then developed at a colour photo printing place.  So the blacks had a slightly blue hue to them. I got my copy printed in grey scale so it wasn't so distracting.

New Zealand fashion was not as up to date with England and France and most Maori Women got there clothes from Traders and Missionaries rather than through catalogues.  Also as it was a pioneer time with Europeans having not that long established themselves here, fashions were often a fusion of both cultures, though I think you are right about the dress being borrowed, it does look miles to big for her.

thanks so much for all your input, definitely food for thought.