June 2005 RootsChat Challenge

[Burrow Digger]

Alex's [Strachan Molison] 2 daughters Augusta Jane Molison and Mary Jean Marshall Molison married 2 brothers named Robertson. 

The Robertson father was a sailmaker for DDII.  Both the sons died early.

But then it looks like I wrong anyway. 

The above person who sent all that lovely info on Duncan Dunbar does say that the 2 Molison girls married 2 brothers - those brothers being John & James Robertson.   

Which means that James is not George's nephew. James might still be a half brother. And we also now know that their father was a sailmaker.


BD

First time I have quoted myself    

Ok more thinking out loud.

George might be James & John's half brother but they all still have the same father by virtue of all being named Robertson.  George was born in 1820, so assuming he was the eldest (it was common to name the first or second son after the father right?) then the father would have been anywhere from 20 to 30 years old - the usual age for men to get married at that time. So we are looking for a Robertson man - possibly born in Scotland - between 1790 and 1800.

Now just to add a little bit extra - my own 4x gt granfather died in 1839 at age 73 - nothing weird about that. But his LAST child was born in 1832 when he was 64.  And he was 50 when he got married. I personally am thinking he must have been married before - so I am currently looking for previous marriages. My point is that  it would be quite possible for Mr Robertson senior to have a child at a late age.

You know that "George Chandlers business founded 1829" is looking better and better for being our missing father - what do you guys think?

Ok I'm turning the brain off for now.
My 3 year old is clamouring to go outside  

BD

[CatOne]

This might be something completely irrelevant - so I apologise in advance (and also apologise if it's been mentioned already) but ....

With this ROBERTSON family on the IGI, I was struck by the middle name Moody, and by the location - Stepney - which we've had previously and which is not too distant (I think) from Limehouse (John's birthplace) or Wapping (George's birthplace).

A George ROBERTSON and a Mary had the following (all extracted records in the IGI - of course these may well represent more than one George and Mary but the dates fit very nicely into a sequence and there is a George born at about the right date, and a John born at about the right date though unfortunately no James at the end of the sequence):
- George & Helen b 2 Mar, bap 22 Apr 1820, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Archibald b 3 Mar 1825, bap 2 Mar 1826, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Hugh Moody b 19 Dec 1828, bap 23 Jan 1829, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Agnes b 20 Dec 1830, bap 24 Feb 1831, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Charles Mackae b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- John b 23 Jan, bap 8 Jun 1835, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Mary b 27 Nov 1837, bap 11 May 1838, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Janet b 6 Feb, bap 3 Apr 1840, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney

I think someone mentioned a George ROBERTSON being a ship's chandler in an 1829 directory? Would be good to find his address and to find him in the 1841 and 1851 censuses ...

And, drawing an even longer bow, in the 1881 census there's an 86yo widowed annuitant Mary ROBERTSON, born Camberwell, in Church Alms Houses in Richmond.

JAP

Found this family in 1861 -
Mary Robertson  Head  Widow  63 Sailmakers widow Paisley Scotland
Hugh Moody 32 Sailmaker  All born Limehouse Middlesex
Agnes 30 
Charles Mackae 27
Mary 21
Janet 21
James 18
Louisa Gelly Hamilton Visitor Unm 53 Fundholder Greenock Scotland
Jane Eleanor M Fielding marr 29 Farmers wife Glasgow
Janet Buchanan L Evering?? unmar Landowners daughter Glasgow
plus 3 servants
Wanstead, Essex, RG9/1060 Folio 134 Page 4

Is this fmaily anything to do with ones we are looking for?? Sorry if off on a tangent.....

[Manchester Rambler]

We can only work from facts, not speculation.  I repeat yet again   that we have little concrete evidence, except the 1881 census entry which lists James' daughter as George's niece.

There is an obvious age difference between George and James, which has already led us to propose that they might be half-brothers, with the same father but different mothers.

As we go along, we find additional clues, such as the IGI entries JAP posted today, where 2 of the sons fit very well with George and John, both in age and location.  When Paul found the entry for George Robertson Ships Chandler in 1829, a father named George became an obvious possibility, and here we have a father named George.  One of the children also has the middle name Moody, which George (1820) later gave to one of his sons.

In the light of this, we have to look again at the contradictory evidence of the 1881 census, and decide what is the more likely explication.  I am quite prepared to accept that Margaret might be George's great-niece, not niece, but at the moment that is a hypothesis, not a fact.

After JAP made the IGI post, we had Pam's info from her Dunbar contact, which states that John and James were brothers, and takes us back to our original idea. (However, we don't know what his source is - it could also be the 1881 census entry.)

Guesswork sometimes cuts corners, but just as often send us off on a false trail....

And Pam's Dunbar contact has confirmed a lot of what we'd already found, so I think we all deserve a pat on the back!  

I certainly think we should follow up JAP's George Robertson family.  If his wife Mary was quite young when they married, she might have had another child who isn't in the IGI, but we could also look for a second marriage for George 1840-1843.

Sorry if anyone thinks I'm being over-cautious, but keeping this thread on track at times feels like being on a runaway train!  

Rambler

CatOne - your post came up as I was typing! 

[CatOne]

Looks like the James Robertson on the 1861 census I just posted is the one visiting the Molison Shipowners in 1871 with Mary Marshall Robertson, age and place of birth fits anyway...... (RG10/1641 Folio 63 Page 3)....unless there are more of the same age James out there   

[Manchester Rambler]

I think we may have cracked the Robertsons!

CatOne's Robertson family on the 1861 census must surely be the same as the IGI entries:

The mother Mary and children Hugh Moody, Agnes, Charles Mackae, Mary and Janet are all identical, and in addition we have a James of exactly the right age to be ours.

This looks like solid evidence to me!  Are the rest of you convinced?

And of course the 1861 census wouldn't have been enough on its own without the IGI extracts, the trade directory for 1829, the other censuses which tied the Robertsons together.... 

I love it when a plan comes together!

(A very happy) Rambler

[MaryA]

Just come in and read through what's come up since I've gone and have a couple of comments.

BD I was doing the double double think the same as you as I was reading it about the two "brothers" marrying the two sisters and it makes more and more sense that they are half brothers.

JAP thanks for listing those births out, I've seen an Archibald somewhere about I believe whilst looking for George Douglas, I'm going to have to try to find him as if I'm right with a child of same name then perhaps this family is connected ......

Wonderful lot of stuff there Pam.

High Park Street, Toxteth Park - I'm trying to give you a visualisation since I was unable to get a photograph.  This gives some up to date information, interesting but not of value to us http://www.bwpics.co.uk/gallery/highpark.html  and I picked up this quote on there too

"This town is full of Germans, Jews, Welsh, Irish and Dutch; it has its fine sides and the docks are wondrous"

Augustus John 1900

This has a picture of a possible school which our Alan may have attended, Beresford Road being nearly directly across Park Road from High Park Street.  You can see the kind of houses that may have predominated in the area, possibly slightly better than those in Uncle George's street.  
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/schools/st%20cleopas.htm even though it's a pretty depressing photograph.
There were some very fine buildings around at that time and areas of Toxteth Park were quite wealthy although this is a terraced street so obviously a bit more downmarket than say, half a mile away where there were some huge houses, with families affording quite a few servants, and set in their own grounds.  (remembering the place my own great grandmother was in service between the late 1870's - 1901).  I'm slightly surprised to find only the two of them living in the house and did check back to see if they only occupied part of it but there are no other families sharing it in the 1881 census.

Re my comment about moving to the Wirral, maybe Mary saw it as a more genteel (old fashioned word) place on the other side of the River Mersey, but where the cost of living was more to her diminishing pocket.  I would take a guess that they moved while Allan was younger rather than when he was old enough to go out to work because of the journey.  Looking on the map, Alderley Road is actually listed nowadays as Wallasey which makes it rather nearer to Birkenhead than way out further in the direction of Hoylake, so fairly convenient for either the ferry "cross the Mersey" or - Paul when did those electric trains start?  

MR - your post came up as I was typing

Dunbar contact, which states that George and James were brothers

I'm confused, should that be John and James?

Blast, three times I've hit the Post button, if I get this up THEN I'm going to check out CatOne's 1861 census.

[Paul E]

some lovely old pubs etc. (the Bunch of Grapes is good!) - it's just down the road from me   

http://www.motco.com/Map/81006/

Jonathan 

I guess that's the venue for the next Rootschat Meet sorted, then!

Paul

[Manchester Rambler]

Sorry Mary!  Of course it should be John and James - I'm tying myself in knots now.   Just going back to modify my post...

Rambler

Count me in for the pub!

[MaryA]

Oooooooooh yes CatOne, they seem to fit very nicely, well done!  and it makes Mary old enough to have started out with George and finish with James too.  Love it, it gets my vote.

Added after
I want my pint of lager waiting on the table when I arrive.

Forgot my manners too, thanks to everyone who helped clarify some of my own thinking by responding to my previous queries.