Author Topic: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge  (Read 197373 times)

Offline MaryA

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #396 on: Sunday 05 June 05 09:46 BST (UK) »
Pfffffffft, knew I wouldn't get out straight away, had to have a quick look on the 1871 for Alan St John L's grandma but it would seem that maybe the whole family were in Scotland until shortly before 1881.  Is there somebody more familiar with searching Scottish stuff can find this Alan's daddy and exclude this family from our lot.

Only Friday? geeeeez my square eyes say I've been looking at this thread for at least three weeks!!!

Oh I wish somebody could find the brothers in 1851 or 1841.  I've checked the BVRI too but none with the same parents. 

I keep thinking back to probably about a third of the way through all this, where we were talking about the age difference between George and James.  Are we certain they couldn't be different generations?  The age different between John and George is much less and if all Augusta's children were being listed as Niece, then Margaret would probably be put down the same even if she were a "great".

Why did the family move over to the Wirral when their apparently nearest relatives were still in Liverpool?   Claude and Allan's jobs (Ships chandler's clerk and Cotton Brokers Apprentice in 1891) make me think they still worked in Liverpool.

One last comment, then I'm gone for a while
Our's is definitely not the "well to do" lot, little two-up two-down houses aren't where George would choose to live with such a crowd if he could afford something bigger.

Mary
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Offline Manchester Rambler

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #397 on: Sunday 05 June 05 10:37 BST (UK) »


I keep thinking back to probably about a third of the way through all this, where we were talking about the age difference between George and James.  Are we certain they couldn't be different generations?  The age different between John and George is much less and if all Augusta's children were being listed as Niece, then Margaret would probably be put down the same even if she were a "great".

Mary

I think that's a valid point.  John's widow Augusta is consistently listed as George's sister-in-law, so we can take it that those two are definitely brothers.  The only concrete evidence to make James their brother as well is the fact that his daughter Margaret is listed as George's niece on the 1881 census.  As you point out, she might be a great-niece, wrongly recorded. 

We therefore have 2 possibilities:

1.  James is brother (or half-brother) to George and John.

2.  James is the son of an unidentified brother of George and John.  (John is too young to be James' father.)

Perhaps there is even a third possibility: that Margaret should have been recorded as George's granddaughter!  That, however, is pure speculation...

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ANT: Nesbit, Potts; CHS: Gosling (Hazel Grove/Lymm), Hinton (Lymm), Johnson (Hazel Grove), Marsland (Hazel Grove), Massey (Daresbury), Sorton (Warmingham); LAN: Jackson, James, Potts (Manchester/Salford); MAY: Caulfield, Griffin (Leveelick); SAL: Goodwin, Johnson (Bridgnorth), Gregory (Wellington); STS: Goodwin, Gregory, Johnson (Wolverhampton); Hallett (Trysull); SOM: Dowding, James, Jones (Bath)

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Paul E

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #398 on: Sunday 05 June 05 10:41 BST (UK) »
Why did the family move over to the Wirral when their apparently nearest relatives were still in Liverpool?   Claude and Allan's jobs (Ships chandler's clerk and Cotton Brokers Apprentice in 1891) make me think they still worked in Liverpool.

One last comment, then I'm gone for a while
Our's is definitely not the "well to do" lot, little two-up two-down houses aren't where George would choose to live with such a crowd if he could afford something bigger.

Mary

That's puzzling me, too - the Alderley Road house is nothing fancy, although its reasonably well located.  It strikes me that this is where someone such as Allan's mum might move if the money was running out.

Nice to visualise Allan hopping on one of the "Frequent Electric Trains" that connect the Wirral with Liverpool though!

Paul

Offline Manchester Rambler

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #399 on: Sunday 05 June 05 10:42 BST (UK) »

Why did the family move over to the Wirral when their apparently nearest relatives were still in Liverpool?   Claude and Allan's jobs (Ships chandler's clerk and Cotton Brokers Apprentice in 1891) make me think they still worked in Liverpool.

Mary

For the sake of non-Liverpudlians, please can someone explain exactly who moved over the Wirral and when?

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ANT: Nesbit, Potts; CHS: Gosling (Hazel Grove/Lymm), Hinton (Lymm), Johnson (Hazel Grove), Marsland (Hazel Grove), Massey (Daresbury), Sorton (Warmingham); LAN: Jackson, James, Potts (Manchester/Salford); MAY: Caulfield, Griffin (Leveelick); SAL: Goodwin, Johnson (Bridgnorth), Gregory (Wellington); STS: Goodwin, Gregory, Johnson (Wolverhampton); Hallett (Trysull); SOM: Dowding, James, Jones (Bath)

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Paul E

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #400 on: Sunday 05 June 05 10:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Rambler

The references on the 1891 census for Mary M Robertson, Claude and Margaret show them in Little Meols, which is Meols, Hoylake, on the Wirral.

cheers

Paul

Offline Manchester Rambler

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #401 on: Sunday 05 June 05 11:06 BST (UK) »
Thanks Paul - I'm fishing for my out-of-date A-Z as I type! 

Would this be a move out to a "nicer" suburb?  Or going down in the world?  I've no idea which areas around Liverpool would have been cheap/expensive, fashionable/unfashionable in the late 19th century. 

Both Claude and Allan were earning in 1891, although as an apprentice, Allan possibly didn't earn a lot.  They could afford a live-in servant, so weren't exactly on the breadline.

Interesting!

Rambler
ANT: Nesbit, Potts; CHS: Gosling (Hazel Grove/Lymm), Hinton (Lymm), Johnson (Hazel Grove), Marsland (Hazel Grove), Massey (Daresbury), Sorton (Warmingham); LAN: Jackson, James, Potts (Manchester/Salford); MAY: Caulfield, Griffin (Leveelick); SAL: Goodwin, Johnson (Bridgnorth), Gregory (Wellington); STS: Goodwin, Gregory, Johnson (Wolverhampton); Hallett (Trysull); SOM: Dowding, James, Jones (Bath)

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #402 on: Sunday 05 June 05 11:53 BST (UK) »
This might be something completely irrelevant - so I apologise in advance (and also apologise if it's been mentioned already) but ....

With this ROBERTSON family on the IGI, I was struck by the middle name Moody, and by the location - Stepney - which we've had previously and which is not too distant (I think) from Limehouse (John's birthplace) or Wapping (George's birthplace).

A George ROBERTSON and a Mary had the following (all extracted records in the IGI - of course these may well represent more than one George and Mary but the dates fit very nicely into a sequence and there is a George born at about the right date, and a John born at about the right date though unfortunately no James at the end of the sequence):
- George & Helen b 2 Mar, bap 22 Apr 1820, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Archibald b 3 Mar 1825, bap 2 Mar 1826, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Hugh Moody b 19 Dec 1828, bap 23 Jan 1829, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Agnes b 20 Dec 1830, bap 24 Feb 1831, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Charles Mackae b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- John b 23 Jan, bap 8 Jun 1835, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Mary b 27 Nov 1837, bap 11 May 1838, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Janet b 6 Feb, bap 3 Apr 1840, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney

I think someone mentioned a George ROBERTSON being a ship's chandler in an 1829 directory?  Would be good to find his address and to find him in the 1841 and 1851 censuses ...

And, drawing an even longer bow, in the 1881 census there's an 86yo widowed annuitant Mary ROBERTSON, born Camberwell, in Church Alms Houses in Richmond.

JAP

Offline Burrow Digger

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #403 on: Sunday 05 June 05 12:09 BST (UK) »

Could I ask a question here, and I know I should be able to find the answer somewhere in this 27 pages, but I haven't managed it.  Please could somebody confirm why they think this  "Robinson lassie"  is the same as our "Robertson lassie".


Ann Robinson  from Whitby in Yorkshire, who married James Muir from Orkney is not connected to the Robertsons in any way,  shape or form. But their grandson James Muir married  Charlotte King, and of course they were the parents of Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir who married our subject - Alan Robertson. :)




Paul, I was wondering whether anybody confirmed that they had emailed John Robertson from Jumbrella with the Wallasey cotton merchant grandfather.  Nobody seems to have mentioned on here that they have, so I'll drop him a line and see whether we get any response during next week.

Email sent


Mary

I actually did send John Robertson an email, but it was late on friday night. So I dont expect to get a reply until Monday since it was a business email address. )


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Offline Boongie Pam

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Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #404 on: Sunday 05 June 05 12:18 BST (UK) »
Hiya,

The chap with Molison and Cornell interests has sent me some cracking info.  Still trying to get him to join.  Here's some detail for the Molisons...

The Dunbar family of N-E Scotland was distinctive and well recorded as to the titled branches, and not well recorded at all for the rest.  One of the 'rest' was Duncan Dunbar who went to the West Indies made a fortune on a sugar plantation, and with his cousin ( Milligan) came back in the 1790s to London with the idea of building an enclosed dock area to prevent pilfering- voila, the West India Dock Company.

Duncan Dunbar prospered as a wine and spirit merchant and wharf owner in Narrow St, Limehouse Reach.  The West India Docks are still there, the Dunbar Wharf is, and I am familiar with both having visited there many times. Duncan Dunbar died a wealthy man. 

His 2 sons John and Duncan II  took over the business.  DDII bought out his brother and turned Dunbars into the largest fleet of sail ever assembled.  It was larger than the Royal Navy.  When he died it was the 3rd largest Probate ever recorded in the UK. 

It held that record until some time in the 1980s.  DDII died in 1862.  The Dunbars had followed that charming Scottish custom of marrying their first cousins to keep the wealth in the family, and employing relatives where they could. 

Hence you find that Osbert Forsyth, a cousin, married a Dunbar, was in business with Sir John Pirie Lord Mayor of London, and whose daughter married James Molison, another cousin and brother of Alexander Strachan Molison

TB was a terrible scourge. 

Alexander Strachan Molison lost most of his male family to it as did his brother James.  They were both Dunbar captains and very good sailors. 

Alexander in DDIIs will was allowed to buy a ship.  He bought the Edwin Fox.  He had captained it quite a bit on the NZ emigrant trade while his brother James had mostly done the Australian convict trade.

Alexander was quite a breeder. 

He married twice.  Firstly Augusta Jane Marshall, who died 1868 and about whom we know absolutely nothing.  [This could be a helpful brickwall to collapse: Pam]


His second wife was a Dunbar cousin Sarah Anne Shores.  He had 7 children by the first wife and 2 by the second. 

His last child was born in 1878 the year Alexander died, and that child died in 1958

So, Alexander's life and that of his children spanned 1802-1958, 156 years!

The Captain of the Edwin Fox was his son Alexander Joseph Molison.  He bought the ship for him. AJM was married to a lady from Isle of Man by the name of Rothwell. 

They had a child of whom we know absolutely nothing. [Another brickwall]

When ASM heard of the death of his son, he sailed out to India and sailed the Edwin Fox home- with the body of his son on board preserved in a barrel of rum. 

A melancholy trip for him indeed.  He sold it soon after.

Alex's 2 daughters Augusta Jane Molison and Mary Jean Marshall Molison married 2 brothers named Robertson

The Robertson father was a sailmaker for DDII.  Both the sons died early.

He Rev Thomas Vial Cornell married another daughter and was an Executor of his will. him we know nothing. [Yet another brickwall]

All the best,
Pam
 ;D
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