June 2005 RootsChat Challenge

[Paul E]

Instead of looking for Claude being alive, maybe we should be looking for Claude being dead? since we cant find him anywhere.

IMO

BD

Yes, BD - I for one would settle for a dead Claude!  Thing is, he's around in 1881 and 1891 but nowhere to be seen as a 4 yr old in 1871.  He's certainly not with his parents then, who are on one of the regular Robertson visits to relatives.

Maybe at sea with other relatives?  We're not likely to find him in 1871 so a death before 1901 would be good to find.

Yet given that neither Alan, Charlotte or Douglas Robertson are enumerated in 1901, do we not suspect a mass Robertson emigration? 

cheers

Paul

[liverpool annie]

Paul

He's with the Servant aged 4 as Claude Robinson remember

Annie

[Paul E]

Humble apologies Annie!   I plead overload and stand corrected - we're missing Claude only in 1901.

cheers

Paul

[liverpool annie]

Here are a lot of familiar names - but the image doesn't match up so I can't check it out - but can anybody else get access ?

1881


Alexander Robertson   abt 1834   Scotland   Head   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London      
   
Alexandra A. Robertson   abt 1869   Camberwell, Surrey   Daughter   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London      
   
Ernest F. Robertson   abt 1880   Poplar, Middlesex   Unknown   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London      
   
Gilbert C. Robertson   abt 1873   South Hackney, Middlesex Son   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London      
   
Isabella B. Robertson   abt 1879   Poplar, Middlesex   Daughter   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London,       
   
Isabella I. Robertson   abt 1841   Scotland   Wife   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London      
   
John S. Robertson   abt 1875   South Hackney, Middlesex   Son   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London      
   
Murray E. Robertson   abt 1880   Poplar, Middlesex   Unknown   13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London   

[liverpool annie]

I asked Rutti Tutti  in South Africa to help us and this is what she found ......

DESCRIPTION          ERECTION OF MEMORIAL TO CAPTAIN CLAUDE ROBERTSON AND LIEUT. WILSON               AT RUSTENBURG.                                                       STARTING  19040619                                                              ENDING    19040912 


This is Claude W....................       

DESCRIPTION          RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS OF CRIMINAL CASE. CRIMINAL SESSION, AUGUST                 1944. REX VERSUS HAROLD KAYE, ROBERT WILLIAM VENNING, CLAUDE                    ROBERTSON, ARTHUR LYON LITTLEJOHN, ROBERT CECIL JOHNSON AND SAMUEL              CARNOFSKY, CHARGED WITH THEFT.                                       STARTING  19440000                                                              ENDING    19440000

I think this makes our Claude too old to be this guy        

      DEPOT     TAB                                                                   SOURCE    MHG                                                                   TYPE      LEER                                                                  SYSTEM    01                                                                    REFERENCE 11777/72                                                              PART      1                                                                     DESCRIPTION          ROBERTSON, CLAUDE CYRIL.                                              STARTING  19720000                                                              ENDING    19720000                                                              REMARKS   SURVIVING SPOUSE MURIEL HAMILTON ROBERTSON

Waiting back on this one - possible Son

I was hoping but high hopes are dwindling.............

Annie

[Manchester Rambler]

More Muirs

Thomas Muir's brother William (b.1804) m. Betsey Wilson on 3 Aug 1830 in Sculcoates, Yorkshire.  (Extracted IGI record.  User-submitted version says 28 Feb 1804.)  Children:

Mary Ann Muir- 17 Jul 1833, Whitby
William Robinson Muir - 8 Oct 1836, Whitby

Thomas and William's brother John Robinson Muir was married twice - here's his second marriage:

Mar 1861 - Whitby 9d 608:
John Robinson MUIR   
Margaret KIDSON

And on the 1861 census:

2 West Terrace, Whitby

John Robinson Muir  Head  53  Butcher  b. Whitby
Margaret Muir  Wife  48  b. Whitby
George Young Muir  Son  13  b. Whitby
James William (?)Cumphus Muir  Son  5  b. Whitby
Margaret Kidson  Dau  12  b. Glasgow
William Henry Kidson  Son  10  b. Whitby

(RG9/3648 - Folio 112 - Pg 29)

There are Free BMD entries for the births of George Young Muir (Sep 1847 Whitby 24 570 ) and James William Muir (Jun 1856 Whitby 9d 392).

Also a birth for John Robinson Muir (Dec 1845 Whitby 24 340) who presumably belongs to one of the Muir brothers.

The Elizabeth Muir who dies in Whitby in Dec qtr 1859 (Whitby  9d 292 ) may be John Robinson Muir's first wife.

Rambler

[JAP]

Fantastic work Pam and MaryA!

So, here's an update on the puzzling Charles Mackae ROBERTSON and Alice JOHNSON lot.

1833 London
Charles Mackae ROBERTSON, b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney, parents George ROBERTSON and Mary (extracted entry IGI)
*****
1857 Liverpool
1. Charles Robertson JOHNSON, birth, June qtr 1857 8b 238 Liverpool

1858 Liverpool
2. Jessie Robertson JOHNSON, birth, Dec qtr 1858, 8b 171, Liverpool

1860 London
3. Alice Maud JOHNSON, birth, Dec qtr 1860, Mile End Old Town, vol 1c, page 533 (Mile End Old Town was a district created Oct 1857 out of Stepney district so not surprising that Alice’s birthplace is later given as Stepney)
There’s also, on FreeBMD, the birth of an Alice Maud JOHNSON in Islington – interesting given the location where Charles and Alice married in 1863; but Mile End more likely.
At her christening in Liverpool in May 1861, Alice Maud's birthdate is given as 1 Oct 1860.  And later her birthplace is given as London.  So it all fits.
This suggests that, some time between 17 Nov 1858 (Jessie's birth) and 1 Oct 1860 (Alice jnr's birth), Alice snr has moved to London with her two Liverpool-born children, Charles Robertson JOHNSON and Jessie Robertson JOHNSON

1861 (7/8 April) Essex
Wanstead, Essex, RG9/1060 Folio 134 Page 4
Mary ROBERTSON Head Widow 63 Sailmakers widow Paisley Scotland
Hugh Moody 32 Sailmaker All born Limehouse Middlesex
Agnes 30
Charles Mackae 27
Mary 21
Janet 21
James 18
Plus 3 visitors and 3 servants

Another posting lists Charles Mackae as:
"Charles Mackae Robertson 27, b. Limehouse. Unmarried, living with his mother" (i.e. in Wanstead, Essex)
Hmmm-hmm-hm!

1861 (7/8 April) London
RG9/293 Mile End Old Town Western Folio 177 Page 12
18 Wm Street North
Alice JOHNSON Wife Mar 23 b Lancashire Liverpool
Charles Son 3 Scholar b Lancashire Liverpool
Jessie daur 2 b Lancashire Liverpool
Alice M daur 6 months b Middlesex Stepney
We now have Alice living in London with no sign of a husband, and with her two Liverpool-born children and her London-born baby daughter Alice jnr
Can anyone find a married Charles JOHNSON without a wife anywhere in 1861?

1861 (May) Liverpool
Alice Maud JOHNSON b 1 Oct 1860, bap 27 May 1861, St Peter, Liverpool, parents Charles JOHNSON and Alice (extracted entry IGI)
Jessie Robertson JOHNSON, b 17 Nov 1858, chr 28 May 1861, St Peter Liverpool, parents Charles JOHNSON and Alice (extracted entry IGI)
Why did Alice snr take Jessie and Alice jnr back to Liverpool to be christened (and why the two different dates - 27 and 28 - and why wasn't Charles also christened then)?  Could it be that Charles Mackae ROBERTSON visited the family firm in Liverpool from time to time, and was known in Liverpool at times as Charles JOHNSON - and was actually the father of Charles J, Jessie J (both b Liverpool with middle name Robertson) and Alice Maud J (b London)?  We've found only one marriage of a Charles JOHNSON and an Alice - in Manchester in 1852 which seems unlikely.  And we haven't found an appropriate Charles JOHNSON in the 1861 census, nor the death of a Charles JOHNSON before our Charles R married Alice in 1863.  But perhaps there truly was a husband called Charles JOHNSON who died between the time of the 1861 census and Alice's marriage to Charles Mackae ROBERTSON in early 1863 ... 

1863 London
Charles Macral ROBERTSON married Alice JOHNSON, Mar qtr 1863, St Luke (St Luke is now in Islington, London)

1864 London
4. Helen ROBERTSON, birth, Mar qtr 1864, Mile End, Vol 1c, Page 552
(Seems likely to be our Helen)
Ellen Emily ROBERTSON, bap 15 May 1864, St Thomas, Stepney, parents Charles ROBERTSON and Alice

Later Note: 1866 Hertfordshire
5. Agnes M ROBERTSON birth, Sept qtr 1866, Watford, Vol 3a, Page 305

1868 London
6. Lilias ROBERTSON, birth, Mar qtr 1868, Mile End, Vol 1c Page 614

1869 London
6. Hugh Moody ROBERTSON, birth Jun qtr 1869, Mile End, Vol 1?c Page 520
Hugh Moody ROBERTSON, b 29 Mar, bap 27 Jun 1869, St Dunstan, Stepney, parents Charles McCrae ROBERTSON and Alice
(There’s another Hugh ROBERTSON bap in the same qtr and year in West Derby.  He’s probably the son of a Hugh M ROBERTSON, and is the Hugh ROBERTSON b West Derby who is in a Union Workhouse School in Kirkdale, Lancashire in 1881)
We haven't found our Hugh Moody ROBERTSON in 1871 or 1881 - perhaps he died though we haven't found a death record yet.

1871 Lancashire
RG10/3847 Ed 49 P 6
West Derby
78 White Rock St
Charles M Robertson  Head  41  Sailmaker  London, Middlesex
Alice Robertson Wife 47 Liverpool, Lancashire
Charles M Robertson Son 18 Liverpool, Lancashire
Jessie Robertson Daughter 17 Liverpool, Lancashire
Alice M Robertson Daughter 14 Stepney, London
Helen E Robertson Daughter 10 Stepney, London
Agnes M Robertson Daughter 8 Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Daughter 5 Stratford, Middlesex (note Stratford will be Stratford-le-Bow often known as Bow)
So, they've now moved to West Derby (interesting in itself) - and the ages are wildly astray.  Perhaps Charles took the instruction to fill it in at midnight literally - and was a little the worse for wear by the time midnight arrived

Part 2 to follow

JAP

[JAP]

Charles Mackae ROBERTSON and Alice JOHNSON, Part 2

Part 1 finished with the family (the JOHNSON children now recorded as ROBERTSON children) in West Derby, Lancashire but with ages astray as follows:

1871 West Derby, Lancashire
RG10/3847 Ed 49 P 6
West Derby
78 White Rock St
Charles M Robertson  Head  41  Sailmaker  London, Middlesex
(age should be about 37 from 1861 census and baptismal entry)
Alice Robertson Wife 47 Liverpool, Lancashire
(age should be about 33 from age of 23 in 1861 census)
Charles M Robertson Son 18 Liverpool, Lancashire
(age should be about 13/14 from 1857 birth entry and 13 from age of 3 in 1861 census - and where did that middle initial of 'M' come from and what does it stand for)
Jessie Robertson Daughter 17 Liverpool, Lancashire
(age should be about 12 from 1858 birth entry, and from age of 2 in 1861 census, and from date of birth of 1 Oct 1858 in baptismal record)
Alice M Robertson Daughter 14 Stepney, London
(age should be about 10 from 1860 birth entry, age of 6 months in 1861 census, and date of birth of 1 Oct 1860 in baptismal record)
Helen E Robertson Daughter 10 Stepney, London
(age should be about 7 from 1864 birth entry, and baptismal record.)
Agnes M Robertson Daughter 8 Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Daughter 5 Stratford, Middlesex
(age should be about 3 from 1868 brith entry)

1873 West Derby, Lancashire
Alice ROBERTSON, death, Age 35 June qtr 1873 West Derby Lancashire 8b 218
(Could well be our Alice, formerly JOHNSON –age fits with age of 23 in the 1861 census and she hasn’t been found in the 1881 census)

1877 Wirral, Cheshire
Charles McCree ROBERTSON, death, age 43 March qtr 1877 Wirral Cheshire 8a 309
(Could well be our Charles – age fits pretty well with age of 27 in the 1861 census, and baptismal year of 1833, and he hasn’t been found in the 1881 census)

So, is the family of Charles and Alice (perhaps including some step-children of Charles but perhaps none are step-children but all are his own children) now orphaned?

1881 census
At Ockham School in Hampshire, we have Alic(sic) Robertson (29 - though someone gave this as 20? Later Note: MaryA has now posted the relevant section of the image and it is clearly 20 with a line through it so this is surely "our" Alice) b. London, as assistant matron. Scholars include Helen Robertson (17), b. London (right  for our Helen/Ellen) and Agnes Robertson (14) b. Bushey, Herts (we don't have her birth entry yet but her birthplace is given on the 1871 census as Hertfordshire).

Lilias Robertson (13) b. London (right for our Lilias) is at a different school in Cheshire.
Note: FamilySearch is down - I'll fill in details when it comes back up

There is also an Alice M ROBERTSON 22 unm Lady of Means b London who might be possible but I prefer Alice at the school if her age is OK Later Note: It is - from MaryA's image - so let's stick with Alice working at the school where her sisters (or half-sisters?) Helen and Agnes are scholars.

Lilias being a fairly uncommon name (as was stated) the following which have been posted certainly look relevant.
1891 London
There has been mention of a Lilias ROBERTSON, "foster daughter/housekeeper" aged 33 (should be 23) on the 1891 census, living in Stepney, London, with another "foster daughter" Beatrice Amy Hart aged 11, and James Orson Hansford widower aged 61 Hammer-Man Engineer E&M
RG12/294 Folio 58 Page 10
Later Note; MaryA has posted the relevant section of the image and the age is clearly 33, and birthplace Miliwall(sic).  There is a birth on FreeBMD in 1858 for a Lilias ROBERTSON (in Poplar) so that seems to rule out Lilias the foster daughter/housekeeper as being ours.

1895 Liverpool
There has been mention of the marriage of a Lilias ROBERTSON to a George Herbert PRESTON Dec 1895 Vol. 8b Page 390 St Pauls,  Toxteth Park

1901 Lancashire
19 Hyde Road, Waterloo, Waterloo with Seaforth, Parliamentary Borough of Southport (which means its in Lancashire, not the Waterloo in London )
Lilias PRESTON Wife M 32 London Bow (age and birthplace right for our Lilias ROBERTSON)
Ronald Son 5 months Lancs Waterloo
Minnie " Servant S 28 General Servant (Domestic) " Liverpool
Jean Butter Serv S 15 " "

Hope all this collated stuff is of some use ; )

Will gladly correct bloopers and omissions.

JAP

[MaryA]

JAP, I hope some of this helps

Lilias had been farmed out to a school in Cheshire Rock Lane, Tattenhall RG11/3552 Chester Tattenhall Folio 111 Page 30 the Head is Jane Birch.

  There is no school name, the entry is just noted as Rocky Lane, Lilias birthplace just noted as London.

The entry for Alice has a downward stroke from the 0 but as can be seen from the column to the left there is also one there, I think these have been made by the enumerator when adding up.  There is a 9 further up the page which looks quite different.

The entry for Lilias looks fairly clear at 33, I expect the thing to do is to find another birth for a Lilias in 1858.  I've included the whole line from this scan so the birthplace can be seen.  My knowledge of London geography isn't good, is Millwall near to Stepney and other places we know about?

Mary

Berlin Bob: I hope no-one minds, but as the width of the images was making the thread difficult to read, I've "cut" each image into two parts and made two "lines" out of each one.