Banns or Wedding entry for Henry Muckaway/Caroline Sayer - High Halden

[casalguidi]

Now, the mystery is how they went from Muckaway,,, which obviously isn't a misspelling since I've seen it over multiple generations.. to McQuire. Which stands until today.. I can't believe Henry just pulled that name out of a hat.. Did name changes have to be done legally in those days?

I did try and explain before that it may just be the "accent" and how it was recognised/misinterpreted by various clergy/registration officers etc. ........... particularly if they were illiterate, as many were.

In this area of Kent it was common (still is in parts) for most of the vowels to be dropped and words  so MUCKAWAY could be pronounced as MCWAI ............... eventually becoming Mc QUIRE see

“I would say that several aspects of these older Kentish accents can be defined,” he explains. “The first is what we call yod dropping. So, someone speaking this accent would say toon, Toozdy and doo for the words tune, Tuesday and dew.

“Another way that you can define them is through the ‘o’ sound in words such as ‘go’, ‘road’ and ‘boat’, which in these accents would be pronounced ‘goo’, ‘rood’ and ‘boot.’

“And the last characteristic is the present participle or ‘ing’. This has three variations in English speech. The middle classes will pronounce each vowel and consonant in what we would think of as standard English, in urban areas the ‘g’ will be left off and in many rural accents, such as those in Kent, the ‘g’ will be left off and the ‘i’ replaced by an ‘e.’

“So to give you an example, for the word ‘running’ you get the middle classes saying ‘running’, urban speech producing ‘runnin’ and those with an older Kentish accent saying ‘runnen’.”

http://kent.greatbritishlife.co.uk/article/voices-of-kent-16852/

Basically, anybody could call themselves whatever they liked.

Saying that, there are a few odd McQUIREs dotted around in the records so there could be another explanation in addition to the above or maybe all the MUCKAWAYS were McQUIRES or vice versa

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the spelling/pronounciation, just that you have the right people

Illegitimacy was quite common back then in some areas.  In fact it is well known that the vicar of Folkestone was, at one time, offering a teapot (or similar) for any bride that went before the altar "without child".  It was quite common for women/girls to have to prove their marriage worthiness by being able to carry/deliver a child before they were wed

Casalguidi

[DavidTaylor]

Hi Casalguidi! Sorry, I wasn't disregarding your theory.Its better than anything I have at the moment... I guess I just find it hard to believe that these illiterate people had the name Mackaway/Muckaway for a long time then in the 1820's someone couldn't understand an accent and wrote down McQuire.. Even if Henry Mackaway/McQuire couldn't read the mistake, wouldn't someone have caught on at some point? Why would the name carry on....When he told his son their name was Mackaway, wouldn't the son say, but dad why does your marriage certificate say McQuire?
 Unless he just thought McQuire looked good and he kept it

[trish1120]

Christenings, Lamberhurst, Kent to JOHN/ELIZABETH Valvick;
CAROLINE 11 June 1837
JEMIMA 11 June 1837
EDMUND 11 June 1837
JANE 11 June 1837
(mass Christening)
+ a posible ALFRED 14 December 1828,Tenterdon, Kent

1841 Census we have in Salehurst, Sussex, under VELVET;
John, 65
Elizabeth, 50
Edmund, 11
Carloline, 9
Jemima, 7
Jane, 5
Charlotte, 1
Cant find Charlottes Christening

F/S has possible Marriages;
JANE Velvick to William STAPLEY 1857
CHARLOTTE Velvet to Caleb BALLARD 1863
Both in Sussex

[redtonyt]

Hi,

The witnesses to the marriage were

Henry Hopper and Anne Maria Sayer.

It looks as if the illegitimate son William died as an infant.
Burial, High Halden
20 September 1820 William Muckaway Inf

Nothing further found on George Muckaway in High Halden.

Not only did Mary and Elizabeth have illegitimate children but so did their sister Susannah.

8 May 1821 Richard Muckaway s/o Susannah of High Halden (Single woman)

Whoops 

Mother Mary (to Elizabeth, Mary & Susannah) also had another child after the death of her husband Richard. 

Burials of these parents

18 Nov 1798 Richard Muckaway 49 High Halden
17 Apr 1844 Mary Muckaway 83 High Halden

Just to finish with this eccentric family what could be the baptism of Elizabeth's grandfather 

18 June 1749 Richard Mukaway s/o John & Elizabeth a stranger.

Tony 

[DavidTaylor]

Boy those Muckaway's sure must have liked a leg over! Even old Grandma Muckaway after the death of Richard?? They must have been the talk of the town! Maybe THAT'S why Henry changed his surname to McQuire!!

[DavidTaylor]

Christenings, Lamberhurst, Kent to JOHN/ELIZABETH Valvick;
CAROLINE 11 June 1837
JEMIMA 11 June 1837
EDMUND 11 June 1837
JANE 11 June 1837
(mass Christening)
+ a posible ALFRED 14 December 1828,Tenterdon, Kent

1841 Census we have in Salehurst, Sussex, under VELVET;
John, 65
Elizabeth, 50
Edmund, 11
Carloline, 9
Jemima, 7
Jane, 5
Charlotte, 1
Cant find Charlottes Christening

F/S has possible Marriages;
JANE Velvick to William STAPLEY 1857
CHARLOTTE Velvet to Caleb BALLARD 1863
Both in Sussex

Hi there.. Although a bit off topic of Henry McQuire, I thought I'd look into these half siblings a bit.. maybe I can find a current day descendent who has heard stories of what was going on in this family!...

Velvick sounds foreign doesn't it? It seems like some of the family may have actually changed their name to Velvet. I thought the 1841 census may have been a mistake, but it seems that a couple of the kids got married under the name VELVET...

Besides Charlotte.. There was Edmund, who got married as EDWARD VELVET

Marriages Sep 1844
VELVET    Edward        Cranbrook    5   123
    
Marriages Sep 1863
VELVET    Charlotte        Ticehurst    2b   119

[DavidTaylor]

Hi,

The witnesses to the marriage were

Henry Hopper and Anne Maria Sayer.

It looks as if the illegitimate son William died as an infant.
Burial, High Halden
20 September 1820 William Muckaway Inf

Nothing further found on George Muckaway in High Halden.

Not only did Mary and Elizabeth have illegitimate children but so did their sister Susannah.

8 May 1821 Richard Muckaway s/o Susannah of High Halden (Single woman)

Whoops 

Mother Mary (to Elizabeth, Mary & Susannah) also had another child after the death of her husband Richard. 

Burials of these parents

18 Nov 1798 Richard Muckaway 49 High Halden
17 Apr 1844 Mary Muckaway 83 High Halden

Just to finish with this eccentric family what could be the baptism of Elizabeth's grandfather 

18 June 1749 Richard Mukaway s/o John & Elizabeth a stranger.

Tony 

Tony, who was mother Mary's child later in life and do we know if she was married?/Her age?

[redtonyt]

Whoops. 

Not only did Mary and Elizabeth have illegitimate children but so did their sister Susannah, was incorrect.

In fact Susannah was only a half-sister, she was the child born to Mary Muckaway after Richard's death.

Her baptism in High Halden

25 December 1802 Susanna Muckaway d/o Mary.

It looks like she married in Bethersden as per :-

11 Nov 1826 by B William Down Ba otp Susan Muckaway Sp High Halden
Witnesses Young Waterman, John Bean (P.C.)
 

Hope this helps.

Tony 

[DavidTaylor]

Hi,

The witnesses to the marriage were

Henry Hopper and Anne Maria Sayer.

Tony, I'm wondering if this is the same Anne Maria Sayer...

William Sayer
spouse:   Thomas Horn
groom's name:   Thomas Horn
bride's name:   Ann Sayer
marriage date:   18 Dec 1853
marriage place:   Herne, Kent, England
groom's father's name:   Charles Horn
bride's father's name:   William Sayer
indexing project (batch) number:   I00357-1
system origin:   England-EASy
source film number:   1836275

Do you show the witnesses for her wedding? Maybe a Caroline Mackaway or McQuire?