Author Topic: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination  (Read 7345 times)

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 13 October 12 11:11 BST (UK) »
I would not have started this thread if I had the information provided by the first few who replied.  I have no other examples to support my original thesis that among the lower classes there was sex-discrimination which resulted in some girls not being baptised.  I now see that my thesis is wrong.  I am glad to be able to say that I was wrong because the attitude underlying it was negative.  My "topic" has been resolved to my complete satisfaction.

The last eight postings provided me with really wonderful information about copyright and other types of protection of the ownership of data-and-information that I have sought for and failed to find (because it is usually buried so deep in Websites).
David


I am still searching for the Leicestershire Baptism of Elizabeth Peach (1785 - 1787)

Online KGarrad

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 13 October 12 11:18 BST (UK) »
David,

This type of discrimination still goes on today!
Take a look at places like India, China - and almost any Third World Country. (these are just examples - I don't mean to criticise any country in particular)

And I can't count the number of times I have seen a census where all the males are accounted for first, and then all the females! Almost as an afterthought!

Life was very different back in those times - which is why I said to be wary of applying modern standards to those living back then. ;D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 13 October 12 12:52 BST (UK) »
The four most important things when we register an England & Wales birth are
1. Where and when born
2. Name, if any
3. Sex
4. Name and surname of father
then comes -  "oh I suppose it might be worth asking who was the mother"
It may have changed, but that was the priority on the Birth Certificate some 20 years ago.

In the June 1840 General Registry Office index of births there is listed a Henry Woodfield.  That is incorrect - he should be named as Henry Masters.  I have a copy of this Birth Certificate.  Henry was born 13 March 1840 in Warwick, England.  The "Name and surname of father" is James Woodfield - his occupation is Boatman (Because this is a documentary statement of paternity I guess that James was present in the Registrar's Office when the birth was registered).  The "name, surname and maiden name of mother" is Ann Masters (i.e. only two responses for the three required pieces of information).  The informant is illiterate and therefore it is the profession hand of Mr Margetts the Registrar that writes the words within the entry "The mark X of Ann Masters, mother, Inmate at George Masters' Laborer Saltisford St Mary".  The birth was registered after the Christening - the birth was registered on 7 May 1840.  The Christening correctly names the child as Henry Masters.

Although they were a little slow in getting the baptism, and a little slow in registering the birth, they were even slower in marrying.  Henry Woodfield and Ann Masters married on 27 March 1843.  James is a Laborer (it could be read as Labour).

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 13 October 12 13:01 BST (UK) »
I don't think you are being very fair!

The registrar simply wrote down what information he was given. ;D
If he was given wrong information, then that's what appears on the Birth Certificate.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)


Offline majm

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 13 October 12 13:20 BST (UK) »
1836/7 regulations were not clear with instructions to recording info.  so correct info given and recorded.   Mr Stan has addressed this several times at RChat

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Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 13 October 12 14:20 BST (UK) »
1836/7 regulations were not clear with instructions to recording info.  so correct info given and recorded.   Mr Stan has addressed this several times at RChat

JM...

From Section XVIII of the 1836 Act " Particulars required to be registered according to the Forms in the said Schedules (A.)......touching every such Birth" You can see Schedule A, registration of a birth at http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20%28by%20date%29&active=yes&mno=4044

Stan
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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 13 October 12 14:30 BST (UK) »
 
    If there was no fee for baptisms, I wonder why my gt grandad had about 6 of his children baptised in one go?

A zealous new vicar making sure that all the children in the parish were baptised; they could have moved parish; to combine the cost of a family get together after the baptisms  :)


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Offline andycand

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 13 October 12 23:02 BST (UK) »
In the June 1840 General Registry Office index of births there is listed a Henry Woodfield.  That is incorrect - he should be named as Henry Masters.  I have a copy of this Birth Certificate.  Henry was born 13 March 1840 in Warwick, England.  The "Name and surname of father" is James Woodfield - his occupation is Boatman (Because this is a documentary statement of paternity I guess that James was present in the Registrar's Office when the birth was registered).  The "name, surname and maiden name of mother" is Ann Masters (i.e. only two responses for the three required pieces of information).  The informant is illiterate and therefore it is the profession hand of Mr Margetts the Registrar that writes the words within the entry "The mark X of Ann Masters, mother, Inmate at George Masters' Laborer Saltisford St Mary".  The birth was registered after the Christening - the birth was registered on 7 May 1840.  The Christening correctly names the child as Henry Masters.

Although they were a little slow in getting the baptism, and a little slow in registering the birth, they were even slower in marrying.  Henry Woodfield and Ann Masters married on 27 March 1843.  James is a Laborer (it could be read as Labour).

On a birth registration a child did not have a surname only a first and sometimes middle name. If the registration indicates that the parents are a married couple then the birth is indexed under the fathers surname, if the registration indicates that the couple are not married then the birth is indexed under both surnames. If no father is on the registration then the birth is indexed under the mothers surname.
 
In the case of Henry, if the mother was only shown as Ann Masters ie only 2 of the required responses you refer to, then that indicates that the parents were not married and the birth should have been indexed under both surnames. If the parents had been married then the 3 responses would have been Ann Woodfield (nee Masters). It does appear that the GRO have erred in not indexing the birth under Masters as well as Woodfield.

It would certainly be not uncommon for a child to be baptised before registered as you had, I believe, 6 weeks to register a birth and many children were baptised shortly after birth.

To echo what KGarrad posted, I think you are being a bit unfair, Registrars only wrote down information they were given, and it was not always accurate, I'm also not sure where you get the idea that mothers were an afterthought.

Andy

Offline carol8353

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Re: Baptismal Sex-Discrimination
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 14 October 12 08:24 BST (UK) »
As Andy says a child only has a christian name/s on a birth cert,the surname is presumed to be that of the father.

See here what you might expect from and English and Welsh birth cert

http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm
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