Author Topic: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)  (Read 7439 times)

Offline FishMan

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WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« on: Wednesday 10 October 12 07:42 BST (UK) »
Hello,

I am trying to find any evidence that Thomas Veal(e) and John Hockines (Hawkins) are the same man? The common link is wife Janet Orr.

John Orr was a Scottish baker and came to Australia in 1858 as a convict aboard the ‘Edwin Fox’. He was convicted of assault and robbery in the Glasgow Court of Justiciary in 1857 and sentenced to 14 years. The ‘Edwin Fox’ sailed from Plymouth on 26 Aug 1858 arriving in Fremantle on 20 Nov 1858. The ship is now the centrepiece of a museum in Picton, New Zealand. John Orr is described as a baker, aged 33, married with 3 children, 5’ 7”, dark brown hair, hazel eyes, fresh complexion, round faced, stout build, slightly pockmarked. A John Orr aged 43 died in WA in 1869.

Janet Orr snr. followed her convict husband to Australia, also bringing daughters Annie and Janet aboard the ‘Fitzroy’ in 1864. The ‘Fitzroy’ sailed from London at 8am on 7 Dec 1864, arriving in Fremantle in March 1865. Son, James Orr’s name appears on the record of final departure, but is crossed out. It is not clear whether he died prior to departure, on the voyage or remained in England. In 1864 Janet snr. was aged 42, Annie 17, Janet 13 and James 10. A Janet Orr aged 69 died in WA in 1894. This could possibly be Janet Orr snr.

Janet Orr married John Hockines (sometimes written as Hawkins) on 7 Feb 1867 at the Registrar’s Office, Bowes & Murchison District, WA. Janet could not write, so made her “X” mark, whereas John Hockines wrote his name very clearly. The spelling is definitely HOCKINES. Hockines was working as a miner and listed his residence as Fortune Mine. Janet was a servant and listed her residence as Northampton.

A daughter Edith Jane Veale was born in 1868 at Irwin River to Thomas Veale and Janet Orr. A son James John Veale was born in 1870 at Geraldine Mine and died aged 1 month. The 2nd birth register index entry lists the mother as Janet Hawkins Orr and father as Thomas Veale.

Janet Orr's partner Thomas Veale was also a convict and came to Australia in 1862 aboard the ‘Norwood’. The ‘Norwood’ left Portland on 16 Mar 1862 and arrived in Fremantle on 9 June 1862. He was convicted of with violence in the Gloucester Assizes in 1860 and sentenced to 6 years. Probably quite a light sentence as he had quite a prior record. Thomas Veale is described as a labourer, aged 25, single, 5’ 81/4”, black hair, light hazel eyes, full faced, sallow complexion, stout build and ink marks left arm, U.W. heart and wreath right arm.

Janet Orr’s second marriage was to John Grice on 9 Sept 1873 in the Congregational Chapel, Fremantle. Her name is written “Janet Hawkins”, widow, occupation Domestic and residence Perth. John Grice was working as a Miner resident in the Champion Bay District. The witnesses are Isaac and Annie Bisp. Annie Bisp is Janet’s sister. She also marries twice, firstly in 1865 in Geraldton to Thomas Burnet Hayward. Secondly in 1872 in Fremantle to Isaac Bisp.

Janet Orr is a widow at the time of her second marriage, indicating that her first husband died prior to 1873. There is a death of a Thomas Veale aged 38 in the register for 1872. There is no death in the registers of a John Hockines, John Hawkins or Thomas Hockines. A Thomas Hawkins dying in 1869 is aged 67, too old.

John Grice & Janet moved to Victoria, South Australia and ultimately Sydney in NSW and had ten children of their own. John outlived his wife Janet and is the informant on her 1903 NSW death certificate which confirms Edith Jane and two deceased boys as being children from her first marriage to "Thomas Hawkins".

Surely Janet would not have married in 1867 (aged 16) and given birth to three children to another man within 3 years. Any thoughts on how I might confirm that Thomas Veale and John Hockines (or Hawkins) are one and the same man? And if so, why would he adopt the Hockines/Hawkins alias for Janet and himself but give his children the surname Veale?

Andrew
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)

Offline sue21757

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 11:46 BST (UK) »
Have you seen the birth 1872
Gilmore female
Brooks female
Father John Mother Janet Orr they both have the same reg no 14430
Cheers Sue

Offline FishMan

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 13:57 BST (UK) »
Hi Sue,

Yes - bit confused by that one. Am too tight to buy the cert just on speculation.

Janet's death cert says she had lost two sons from 1st marriage, no mention of a 2nd daughter.
Her mother, Janet Orr snr, would have been aged 50 in 1872, and I don't know of any other Janet Orr's in the area at that time (it's not a very common name).

Andrew
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)

Offline Dundee

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 14:20 BST (UK) »
"Surely Janet would not have married in 1867 (aged 16) and given birth to three children to another man within 3 years".

It looks like her sister also had children with a John THOMPSON in between her two marriages.

This is weird...

Marriages

ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWARD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       2343    1865    
ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWOOD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       3230    1871

Debra  :)


Offline Sandra_Fallon

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #4 on: Monday 08 July 13 14:54 BST (UK) »
"Surely Janet would not have married in 1867 (aged 16) and given birth to three children to another man within 3 years".

It looks like her sister also had children with a John THOMPSON in between her two marriages.

This is weird...

Marriages

ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWARD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       2343    1865   
ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWOOD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       3230    1871
These people are mine great great grandfather and mother.

Offline Sandra_Fallon

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #5 on: Monday 08 July 13 15:13 BST (UK) »
Thomas Burnett Hayward was a Merchant Captain [sea captain] his wife was Annie Orr.
Their daughter was Janet Hayward, who married JOhn Judge on 12th March, 1885 @ the Wesley Church, Geraldton, Western Australia.
John and Janet Judge had the following children: John Albert, Dorothy, Elsie, Robert, Tom.
Janet remarried in 30th March 1914 to Frederick Growden at St. Allan's Church at Highgate, Perth Western Australia.  She was remarried at the age of 49. Janet passed away on the 4th July, 1942 and buried at Merredin Cemetery in Merredin Western Australia.
Robert Judge married Juanita Tindale, they had triplets and they didnt survived. Wendy and Dorothy. My mother is Wendy and she married Athol Fallon.


ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWARD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       2343    1865   
ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWOOD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       3230    1871

Offline FishMan

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 13:42 BST (UK) »
Sandra, how far have you got with TBH? I know he was in Canada/US, looks like he deserted Annie? Andrew
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
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GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)

Offline Sandra_Fallon

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 14:03 BST (UK) »

Hello Fish Man.
I have found that Thomas Burnett Hayward was "reported" missing by his daughter Janet Hayward/Judge/Growden. This is what it reads:
Captain Thomas Burnett Hayward was lost at sea trading from Maurituis and Freemantle {Western Australia]. 10th August.1928.
I can add to this about Janet nee Hayward, Judge & Growden.
Janet Hayward was married at 17 years to John Richard Judge. When John Judge died she remarried to Fred Growden 30th March, 1914

Offline Dundee

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Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 10 July 13 01:59 BST (UK) »
This says that Thomas was "last heard of as being at Rocky Point, North Carolina, U.S.A., on 27th August, 1894."  I think Janet probably had no idea what had become of her father.  "Lost at sea" sounds respectable. 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14165376

Josephine Elizabeth HAYWARD was Thomas's mother.

1872 was a busy year for Ann ORR.  She either thought or claimed that Thomas was dead, (edited because I can't add up), remarried to Isaac BISP and had another daughter named Mary.  Meanwhile, she had already had two children with a John THOMPSON in 1868 and 1870!  It seems to me that Thomas may have disappeared from the scene soon after marrying Annie.

Something is not quite right here.

Debra  :)