Author Topic: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED  (Read 6000 times)

Offline LiamJDB

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 27 September 12 16:23 BST (UK) »
Fair point - I must have read your previous post too quickly and thought it had said "It has not been possible to enter into a common law marriage in this country since the passage of Lord Hardwicke's Act in 1753" instead of "informal marriage", as you wrote. My mistake. I'd go on from there, though, to say that there was similarly no legal possibility or de facto practice of informal marriage, as normally loosely defined these days (for example, for 'informal' read 'bare exchange of consent') before the 1753 Act.

To back that up, I'd note that a "clandestine" marriage as understood before the Act was a very specific thing, ie a marriage that took place before an Anglican clergyman but without complying with all the requirements of the canon law (during the canonical hours, with banns, in the parish church of one of the parties etc). The Act laid down in statute law the requirements, and gave them teeth, but every single element required under the Act had already existed in canon law for centuries. Clandestine marriage before the Act was still perfectly valid in law, but could attract the censure of the church courts; after the Act, the idea of "clandestinity" came to be more associated with secrecy or evasive elopement. Clandestine marriage was never informal, but instead perfectly valid but outside the church's strict requirements. Most clandestine marriages were only clandestine in that they took place in the "wrong" parish, and it was in fact the popularity of the Fleet (where every marriage was by definition clandestine) which was the direct stimulus behind the Clandestine Marriages Act.

Informal marriage is, IMHO, a different kettle of fish: The phrase "informal marriage" is itself a later concoction - it didn't occur in the C18th - and the practices nowadays generally associated with the phrase (eg "broomsticks", "handfasting", "common-law" arrangements) didn't exist.
Specialist in the laws and practices relating to marriage, England and Wales, 1600 to the present day

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 27 September 12 16:59 BST (UK) »
There is no doubt that marriage laws are complex, you can download the 1873 book “The marriage Law of England” which has about 480 pages to cover the subject at that time. http://archive.org/details/marriagelawengl00hammgoog

Stan
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Offline Redroger

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 27 September 12 19:13 BST (UK) »
and her research shows that only a vanishingly small number of couples lived together as husband and wife without going through a formal Anglican ceremony - her book's fascinating reading - highly recommended.



Yet a project I have been involved in "Dorset Bastards" shows that in the period where a fairly complete set of parish registers survives usually from c1700-1837, the percentage of illegitimate births in Dorset (recorded as base born ) rises consistently from around 5% to around 15% by the end of the period. I don't call either of these percentages "vanishingly small"
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Offline LiamJDB

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 27 September 12 20:11 BST (UK) »
Those figures strike me as a little high compared to other national data on illegitimate births for 1700-1837 (which would, roughly and from memory, start at around 2% and rise to between 5% and 10%). A more important point I'd make is that I did say "a vanishingly small number of couples lived together as husband and wife without going through a formal Anglican ceremony", not that there were a vanishingly small number of illegitimate births, which I accept wouldn't be true. There's a stark difference throughout that period (and in fact all the way through to the late C20th) between illegitimate births per se and illegitimate births to a woman who was living in an ongoing non-marital relationship with the father, ie what we'd call 'cohabiting' today.

The reason I've been looking through posts on various genealogical forums concerning marriage laws and practices is that I'm the publisher of Professor Rebecca Probert's latest book, Marriage Law for Genealogists, which she wrote because of the ubiquity of mistakes as to the law and practices in previous centuries (especially before 1754) in existing guides for family historians. Rebecca has, as it happens, done a number of large, detailed cohort studies on illegitimacy and the prevalence of cohabitation for two other books she's written (Marriage Law & Practice in the Long Eighteenth Century: A Reassessment (Cambridge University Press, 2009) and The Legal Treatment of Cohabitation, 1600-2010: From Fornicators to Family (CUP, 1012)). She's found, consistently, that such women tended to bear a single illegitimate child and then remain single thereafter. I don't have a copy of her relevant articles or these two titles to hand, but my recollection is of a study of Northamptonshire illegitimacies for the same kind of timeframe, in which the percentage of women bearing an illegitimate child to the same father (as an indication of an ongoing, sexual, non-marital relationship) was something in the order of 0.1-0.5% of illegitimate (not total) births. That's what I'd mean by "vanishingly small".

Of course, there's always the argument that some couples had illegitimate children because they weren't validly married, even though they were living in a stable, sexual relationship, for example when one was already married to somebody else, but I think these are of a different nature to couples who set up home unmarried although able to marry if they wished. I didn't make that point in the previous post, admittedly, but Rebecca's research nevertheless indicates that these couples were for the most part anxious to be seen to be married, even committing bigamy rather than be known to be "cohabiting" (not a contemporary term in this usage).

You clearly know a lot about this area, Stan, and the Dorset Bastards study sounds very interesting. It might be that Rebecca has already come across it, but I myself haven't, I don't think, read the name anywhere in her research. Do you have any link I could pass on to Rebecca, so she can take a look at the findings? I know she'd be very interested.

Liam
Specialist in the laws and practices relating to marriage, England and Wales, 1600 to the present day


Offline LiamJDB

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #13 on: Friday 28 September 12 08:44 BST (UK) »
Actually, Stan, I'll revise that previous claim up slightly, having pored over Rebecca's Marriage Law & Practice in the Long C18th (pp114-5 to be exact) - the cohort was of all illegitimate children in all Northants baptism registers between 1730 and 1751 (including all references to bastard, base, spurious, natural, reputed, misbegotten etc etc), a total of 847 births. Of these, in 221 cases both parents' names were recorded, and of these just 6 pairings (2.7% of the 'both parents named' sub-cohort and 0.7% of the illegitimacy cohort) went on to bring a subsequent illegitimate child to be baptised. This is just one of the various studies Rebecca has done to try to gain an idea of the incidence of ongoing, non-marital sexual relationships across the period.
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Offline stanmapstone

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #14 on: Friday 28 September 12 08:53 BST (UK) »
Actually, Stan,

The post was by Redroger, not me.

Stan
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Offline LiamJDB

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #15 on: Friday 28 September 12 09:02 BST (UK) »
I'm really not on the ball right now, it appears - I'll admit I'm all but a complete novice when it comes to using web forums, and I hadn't even spotted that there are names on the left hand side, if you can believe it - I was simply going on a name I'd spotted at the foot of a previous post. Sorry!
Specialist in the laws and practices relating to marriage, England and Wales, 1600 to the present day

Offline LiamJDB

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #16 on: Friday 28 September 12 09:07 BST (UK) »
Quote
Yet a project I have been involved in "Dorset Bastards" shows that in the period where a fairly complete set of parish registers survives usually from c1700-1837, the percentage of illegitimate births in Dorset (recorded as base born ) rises consistently from around 5% to around 15% by the end of the period. I don't call either of these percentages "vanishingly small"

Redroger - making the same point I mistakenly addressed to Stan yesterday, do you have any link or info on the Dorset Bastards project I could pass on to Rebecca, so she can take a look at the findings? I know she'd be very interested.
Specialist in the laws and practices relating to marriage, England and Wales, 1600 to the present day

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: watercress seller = prostitute? COMPLETED
« Reply #17 on: Friday 28 September 12 09:33 BST (UK) »
I'm really not on the ball right now, it appears - I'll admit I'm all but a complete novice when it comes to using web forums, and I hadn't even spotted that there are names on the left hand side, if you can believe it - I was simply going on a name I'd spotted at the foot of a previous post. Sorry!

It does complicate thing when posters do not put a name at the end

Stan
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