Author Topic: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase  (Read 1360 times)

Offline jaybee1946

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Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« on: Monday 17 September 12 12:11 BST (UK) »
Some time between 1863 and 1868, my great grandfather William Seal and his father Joseph Seal both of Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK were involved in  a court case against each other in Birmingham. Seeking any information that may related to same. As a result  of losing this case William emigrated to Australia

Offline PrueM

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #1 on: Monday 17 September 12 12:33 BST (UK) »
Hi jaybee :)

Found this for you, which at least gives you a date; looks like William's father was involved in the case too:

Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury, Saturday 6 July 1867, page 5:
Birmingham Bankruptcy Court, Friday - In re. W. SEAL, Nuneaton, brickmaker - Adjourned last examination.  Mr. Morgan appeared for the assignee; Mr WS Allen for the bankrupt's father, a creditor; and Mr H Dewes, Nuneaton, for the bankrupt.  Mr Morgan said that the assignee, having gone through the special accounts ordered by the Court at the last examination, did not feel it his duty to oppose the bankrupt's discharge.  The bankrupt was discharged accordingly.

Added: have also found an earlier article which gives more detail of the case, but it will take me a while to transcribe - will post it as soon as I've finished.

Offline PrueM

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #2 on: Monday 17 September 12 12:47 BST (UK) »
Leicester Chronicle and Leicestershire Mercury, Saturday 20 April 1867, page 8

Birmingham Bankruptcy Court, Wednesday - Before Mr Registrar Hill - In re W. Seal, Nuneaton, brickmaker - first meeting.  Mr Griffin attended for the creditors, and Mr Morgan for the Leicestershire Bank and other creditors.  Mr Griffin objected because of certain securities given by the bankrupt, in regard to a promissory note for over L500.  These securities had not been produced, and therefore he held that in the absence of these securities the affidavit did not come within the strict rule of the Court.  it might be when the securities were produced that the bankrupt would have no right to prove at all. Mr Wm. Morgan urged that the securities were given by the father to Mr Payne, from whom the money was borrowed.  Mr Payne was examined, and stated that the securities - mortgages - were given by the bankrupt's father.  The money was paid to Mr Seal, jun. The bankrupt was called, and he stated that the loan was on the part of his father, and he received certain amounts from him which he placed to his own account in the bank, and of which he had made entries in his book. - Mr Griffin contended that all documents must be produced before the Commissioner, to see whether they should be left to the general benefit of the creditors, or to whom else they should go.  It was an old rule, without one single exception. - His Honour said the question was one of fact, whether the creditors lent the money to the bankrupt or to the father. - Mr Morgan said he did not know for what possible purpose they required the deeds, because they had nothing whatever to do with that question.  It was a mere matter of arrangement qua surety to satisfy the creditor, and had no relation whatever to the bankrupt's estate. - The bankrupt's father was examined, and he stated that the money was paid to his son by Mr Payne, and he was only security for the amount.  The transaction was entirely between the bankrupt and Mr Payne.  After the bankrupt had obtained the money, he asked him (witness) to retain possession of a portion of it, which he handed to the bankrupt as he wanted.  Out of the whole amount he only kept L40 on account of rent, which the bankrupt owed him.  in cross-examination, he said he never was in partnership with his son, and he had never made any arrangement with him that he should not have any interest on the money lent to him.  He never made any arrangement at Lady-day, 1866, that he should have a share of the profits of the trade in which his son was engaged. - His Honour ruled that he did not think the securities ought to be exhibited.  Afterwards, Mr Thomas Payne, ...[here the scan has cut off the bottom of the article  :-\ ]

Offline jaybee1946

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 18 September 12 00:49 BST (UK) »
Thank you Prue - as I expected, a father / son  problem with an interesting result - the beginning of the family line in Australia.  Can you please tell me how you found this? - I am a relatively new researcher
 Janne :)


Offline spendlove

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 18 September 12 21:09 BST (UK) »
Hi Janne,

Most people in England get free home access to a number of newspapers via their local library.  The same records
can be found on:-

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/    BUT YOU HAVE TO PAY TO ACCESS

Official Notices of all kinds can be found in The London Gazette -  FREE ACCESS

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/

When page opens look on right hand side for HISTORIANS,  then click on "search the archive".  Next Page, I entered from 1.1.1867 to 31.12.1867  and With exact phase = William Seal
you will then get a number of official notices, however they will not contain such a detailed account as appeared in the local newspaper.

Hope this helps.
Spendlove
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Spendlove, Strutt in London & Middlesex.

Offline PrueM

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 18 September 12 22:38 BST (UK) »
The same applies with Australian residents, who can get access to newspaper collections through the National Library of Australia website, when they get a reader's card from the NLA (you can apply online and get one posted out)  :)

Offline WS

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 17:38 BST (UK) »
I might be able to help you with this one, perhaps we are distant relatives.

Offline jaybee1946

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 23:32 BST (UK) »
the Seals mentioned in this case are my great and great, great grandfathers.

Offline WS

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Re: Seal vs Seal Birmingham courtcase
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 11 October 12 04:54 BST (UK) »
Do you have any idea as to when he emigrated?