Author Topic: Peach  (Read 11612 times)

Offline Pels.

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Re: Peach
« Reply #18 on: Friday 21 September 12 20:04 BST (UK) »
    


Is there a connection between the mother of this child and the Elizabeth who married Anthony ?

Christening : 27th January 1809
Ann Peach
Mother : Elizabeth Peach
Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire

Pels.
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Peach
« Reply #19 on: Friday 21 September 12 22:43 BST (UK) »
Two excellent references.
And two questions that are new to me.  Both questions are good and challenging.  I add then to my list of questions which include
(1) Who was Dorothy Peach who was a witness at the wedding of Martha Handly Peach?
(2) Who was Charles Peach Farmer of AdlZ who stood surety of £20 (equivalent to £12,000 in 2011) so that she could be issued with a marriage licence to marry Lieutenant François Peyrol.

I have about half a dozen questions, any one of which could lead to a new link.

I have decided to prefer Handly as the spelling of Martha's middle name - because that is the way that she signed her name.


Offline Pels.

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Re: Peach
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 22 September 12 09:11 BST (UK) »





All I seem to be doing is asking questions, here's another, sorry. 

Do you have the whereabouts of Antony in 1841 ?

Pels.
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Peach
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 22 September 12 11:37 BST (UK) »
This is copied from an old account that I wrote some years ago and throughout that account I spell AJH's name as Anthony Joseph Hoffman which is how it was written on his Death Certificate.  The only two signatures that I have (1810 and 1816) have his name written as Antonÿ Joseph Hoffmann (1810) and Antony Joseph Hoffmann (1816).

I have searched the 1841 Census for AJH.  My search has included all variants of the surname including Offman and Hoofman.  Ancestry allows wild card search for middle letters and I have exploited this to the full.  I have not limited myself to Anthony/Antony/Tony but my search has had no success.  I can never be sure.  But this following explanation is one that buys me a little peace of mind.

In 1841 Anthony Hoffman (the son of Anthony Joseph Hoffman) marries Lucy Pegg.  On the day of the marriage, Lucy Pegg is under the age of 21 (she does not try to slip by as “of age” she actually gives her age as 20).
 
The 1841 Census was held on Sunday 6 June 1841.  The wedding was 8 days later on the 14 June 1841.  It is therefore possible that Anthony Joseph Hoffman went to Newton Regis, Warwickshire to obtain the written permission of Lucy’s father John Pegg.  Alternatively AJH went to Newton Regis to collect both of Lucy’s parents and bring then to AdlZ for the wedding.  Please be patient with me while I fantasize about the first option (only).

As incidental information Lucy Pegg signed her name on the marriage certificate, and in this period when literacy was so heavily biased towards the male sex, her literacy strongly suggests that her father John Pegg was also literate.

At one time, in my imagination I could see Anthony Joseph visiting Lucy Pegg’s parents and obtaining the written consent of John Pegg.  Anthony Joseph may have gone alone or he may have brought his son Anthony with him.  Anthony Joseph would certainly not have brought his son Anthony to the Pegg’s house – that would be impolite and counterproductive in any Century.  Measham (where the son Anthony lives) is midway between Ashby and Newton Regis – and this may have been a convenient stop on the way.  Anthony Joseph Hoffman could have travelled to Measham by stage coach on the Saturday evening.   Anthony the son, was a groom and therefore could ride a horse and he would know who to hire a pair of reliable horses from, and he could chose a pair suitable for his father and himself.  If the two Antonys travelled overnight from Measham to Newton Regis they would have had good light from the moon -  according to http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phasecat.html
there was a full moon on Friday 4 June 1841 – and so towards midnight of Saturday 5 June and/or in the early hours of Sunday 6 Sunday the two men could have ridden in bright moonlight and could have stopped at a hostelry near Newton Regis just as the sun was rising.  At the hostelry they could catch up on sleep, have breakfast and freshen up and look smart.  They would have arrived at the hostelry too late to be included in the Census.  The son Anthony would have stayed behind in the hostelry while his father visited John & Mary Pegg.  It is also possible that Anthony Joseph travelled alone – but still found it convenient to pick up a horse from his son in Measham. The instructions on the 1841 Census asks for the Names of each Person who abode therein the preceding Night.  Those who slept overnight in a particular house in Ashby were recorded in the 1841 Census as being Elizabeth Hoffman, her eldest son John Hoffman and also the bride-to-be Lucy Pegg (there is something auspicious about Lucy being there with her future mother-in-law – Lucy's presence and the absence of her future father-in-law are in a curious asymmetry).  Those who slept overnight in a specific house in Newton Regis were John and Mary Pegg, the parents of Lucy Pegg.  Strictly speaking, Anthony Joseph Hoffman on his journey should have been recorded at the place where he left at the start of his journey – but was this Ashby or Measham?  Honest mistake do happen.
 
Anthony Joseph Hoffman was well thought of in Ashby de la Zouch, and he had even been made treasurer of an Ashby sick club.  He was a hatter and to be successful as a hatter, he would have owned and would habitually wear very smart suits and he would speak in such a way as to sell his hats to the wealthier citizens of Ashby de la Zouch.  Anthony Joseph Hoffman spoke with a Dutch accent, and in the nineteenth century Dutch were very well regarded by English people.  The writing that we have that was done by Anthony Joseph Hoffman shows him to be a man who is self-confident.  But Anthony Joseph like any good shopkeeper finds the level to speak that will influence his customer.  No doubt his demeanour and appearance overcame whatever doubt that there may have been in the minds of Lucy Pegg’s parents.
 
I should perhaps make it clear that this idea of a journey to Newton Regis is pure fantasy and wishful thinking on my part.  The truth is entirely different – I do not know why Anthony Joseph Hoffman was absent from his home on Census day 1841.



Offline Pels.

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Re: Peach
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 22 September 12 12:36 BST (UK) »




Best thing to do is for you have a look at this image and see what you think :

~~~~~~~~~~

1841 census :
HO107/598/14, Folio 9, Page 11

Leicestershire, Lutterworth
Church Street

//
John Sutton, 40, Farrier
Mary, 44
/
nk Hufman, 70, Hatter
Mary Carrington (?), 45, Ind
//

Mary Sutton is the only one noted to have been born in county.

~~~~~~~~~~

Might be worthy of consideration. You will find him by searching for 'Nk Hupman'.
As you will already know the census term refers to name 'not known'.

Pels.
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Peach
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 22 September 12 13:55 BST (UK) »
I have to tell you Pels that you have just won a prize.

The account of AJH which came from his grandaughter tells us that AJH worked as a hatter for Messrs. Kelsey, silk hat makers, who came from Lutterworth, and had a shop next door to the Urban District Council Chamber" .
The account is in the Book "The story of Ashby-de-la-Zouch" by W.Scott, published by George Brown Ashby de la Zouch, 1907.  My copy was bought by my mother from the publisher on 21 December 1939.  The piece that I quote does appear ambiguous when it out of context of the book.  The style of phraseology of the book is such that it is clear that the author has in mind a shop and a UDC Chamber in Ashby de la Zouch (and not Lutterworth).

I am absolutely delighted Pels that you came into my life.  What has happened here is much better than the lonely experience within Ancestry.co.uk and Genes Reunited.

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Peach
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 22 September 12 16:00 BST (UK) »
Yes Pels that all looks ok to me.  Kelsey was a silk hat maker who had an interest in a wider area than Lutterworth.  So he would have at least five employees in Lutterworth.  I consider that Lutterworth plus hatter is not quite two points - but say one and three quarters.  The "nk" is in fact "n k" which as you say is the abbreviation of "not known".  AJH died on 12 March 1851.  The age on his Death Certificate is 78.  So on 12 March 1841 AJH would be between his 68th and 69th birthday.  The 1841 Census is nearly three months later (6 June 1841) so on Census day AJH might have been in his 70th year.  Ages were supposed to be rounded down in the 1841 Census, so AJK should have been recorded as 65.  However I am not the slightest bit uncomfortable with the stated age of 70.  Hupman is acceptable as an honest attempt to write the name of someone whose given names (Christian names) are unknown.  Lutterworth is too far away from AdlZ, Measham or even Newton Regis (where John Pegg, Ag lab, and his wife Mary live).  There is therefore no obvious connection between the imminent marriage and AJH being in Lutterworth on Census night.
But there is enough there.  This is my Antonÿ Joseph Hoffmann

I don't see any familiar names on the Census page that you found, nor on the adjacent pages.  I now close that particular book.  Possibly AJH wanted something (cloth or etc) from Kelsey, and Sunday was a good day because the AdlZ shop would be shut on Sundays.

Offline D_Anthony_H

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Re: Peach
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 22 September 12 21:13 BST (UK) »
n k Hupman is in Church Street.  On the next page but one, also in Church Street, is John Kelsey, aged 50, and his wife and their four children aged 13, 15, 17 & 20.

Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: Peach
« Reply #26 on: Monday 24 September 12 21:45 BST (UK) »
Greeting’s…..Folks......

I was invited in…….
to throw anything thing extra in .due to my Leicestershire local knowledge………
Having looked at all events which have been mentioned on this thread :~
Re a Baptism for Elizabeth Peach late 1700’s
I noted the following Ashby De la Zouch :~

1789 6th December Daughter of William & Elizabeth Peach
1793. 12th.October. Daughter of Job & Frances Peach. née TOON.

The thought crossed my mind could either of these Elizabeth Peach's have been adopted
by John & Elizabeth Peach ?

Re :~ Marriages ....

Both Francois Payrol & Anthony Joseph HOFFMANN
Were French Prisoners of War. ……..

1816.Ruth Handley Peach married John Danver 10th. November
Shepshed. …. by Banns.

More Jigsaw pieces to add to your pile …….

Re events found within the Leicestershire Poor Law Sessions :~

1807….Epiphany ~ Michaelmas Sessions
 Case QS6 / 1/1/ 636. Microfilm No’. 507.
Confirmed ……3rd January.
Elizabeth Peach, Single woman
Removal Order From Ashby de la Zouch to Castle Donnington.

And ……..

1811.
Easter Sessions
Case No’. QS3 / 387 / 9. Microfilm No’. 509.
Declaration
23th. April.
Martha Peach. Single Woman 
Male delivered….20th. April.
Removal to Castle Donnington.

MIKE. …….
Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.