Peach

[Pels.]

I'm confused, Liz - but I expect I'll have to wait a bit longer to find out now ?

As it happens, my Elizabeth Peach was married before the 1841 Census.  She died before the 1851 Census.  The only facts that I have is a "Y" in the 1841 Census for Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire, plus also the age on her Death Certificate which is the same as the age in the Parish Records, and finally the name of a witness at Elizabeth's wedding - Martha Handley Peach (who was Christened in Ashby de la Zouch).

I rule out the 1789 Elizabeth because my Elizabeth was born in 1786 or (slightly less likely) in 1787. 

Before you look at the link I posted above, have you seen this :

Christening: 6th December 1789
Elisabeth Peach
Parents : William and Elisabeth  Peach
Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire

The 1841 census claims Elizabeth was 50, therefore born circa 1791. As I'm sure you are aware this census has the age for anyone over the age of fifteen rounded down to the nearest five years.

I think the above baptism looks a good match for the lady in 1841.

Pels.   

The Elisabeth I mentioned in 1841 was married because her surname was recorded as Hoffman. She was living with her 25 year old son, John - who was recorded as a Hat Maker.

~~~~~~~~~~

1841 census :
HO107/594/3, Folio 28, Page 15

Leicestershire, Ashby de la Zouch

Elizabeth Hoffman, 50
John Hoffman, 25, Hat m.

Both born in county.

~~~~~~~~~~

Christening : 15th February 1815
John Hoffman
Parents : Anthony and Elisabeth
Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire

~~~~~~~~~~

Death, Jun 1847 
Elizabeth Hoffman   
Ashby de la Z, Vol 15, page 1

And the death certificate I mentioned, which I imagine to say Elisabeth was in her late fifties when she died - possibly 57 or 58 years of age ?

Pels.

[D_Anthony_H]

Yes you are right it is Elizabeth Hoffman (née Peach) who was married 14 May 1810 in St Helens Church to someone who signed himself Anton˙ Joseph Hoffmann (Anton˙ was maybe 38, Elizabeth was maybe 23).  Elizabeth died 3 April 1847 and was buried 7 April 1847.  She was stated on both documents to be 60 (presumably this information came from her husband who outlived her by nearly four years).  Her husband was a Hatter.  He had come to England as a Prisoner of War.  He had been a Sous-Lieutenant and had been captured by the English 15 August 1809 in Flushing (Vlissingen) in the Netherlands.  As well as being multilingual Anton˙ was also Treasurer of a local sick club.  Presumably Anton˙ celebrated his wife's 60th birthday and this was possible because Anton˙ could read, write and do arithmetic.

(1) I agree that the age of 60 may well have been correct and that she was baptised when three years old.
(2) I also accept that his statement that his wife was 60 might be untrue because she lied to him (or maybe Anton˙ had a serious stroke in 1847, or earlier,  and could no longer do arithmetic)..

The difficulty with accepting either (1) or (2) is that it is not possible to justify the logic of rejecting the other option (although I freely admit that both options embrace the 6 December 1789 baptism).  That is why I search for a Parish with two events - a Christening of Elizabeth and the marriage of her Aunt and Uncle.  There may be no such Parish, because the truth may indeed be option (1) or it may be option (2).  But if there is such a Parish then the two events would provide mutual corroboration.

I will post again to explain what I have learned about IGIs and how I will use them as Pels prompted me to, because it helps me work out a "plan for searching" if I am able to "think out loud" by talking to someone.

[D_Anthony_H]

This is a study I did a while ago.  Although it relates to Ashby de la Zouch it shows IGI gaps that also occur in several other Parishes.  These gaps explain why some events cannot be found on the IGI.  The IGI data is derived from Bishop's Transcripts which are on 35mm film.  The IGI slightly inflates the numbers because most years include one or two Births which are quoted in subsequent Christenings (see years 1813 and 1841 for examples)

Year by year numbers of Christenings in Ashby de la Zouch
           IGI
1800      50
1801      60
1802      81
1803      69
1804      78
1805      77
1806      75
1807      83
1808      83
1809      83
1810      82
1811      71
1812      65
1813        2   One was Christened in 1833, the other in 1836 - both born in 1813
1814    117
1815    104
1816    113
1817    117
1818    117
1819    116
1820      87
1821    121
1822    139
1823    120
1824    120
1825    122
1826    122
1827    131
1828      98
1829    118
1830    103
1831    114
1832    110
1833    125
1834    121
1835    102
1836      99
1837        0
1838        0
1839        0
1840        0
1841        1    Christened in 1849, born in 1841
1842     105
1843     109
1844       99
1845     117
1846         0
1847      148

1) Bishop's Transcripts for some years have been lost e.g. 1813, 1846.
2) There is a bigger gap that affects five consecutive years

[D_Anthony_H]

Martha Handley Peach had a sister called Ruth.  Ruth was Christened with one name "Ruth".  However when Ruth married, she called herself Ruth Handley Peach.  So Handley is important, and could well be their mother's maiden name.

[D_Anthony_H]

This posting will explain why I started to question the completeness of the IGI, and tried to understand how and why it is incomplete.  I am concerned only with IGI "Batches".  There are individual entries in the IGI but these are`well known to be variable in veracity.

There is a Gedcom that was last updated on 15 January 2001.  The author is Frank Brocklehurst.  Frank may no longer be with us.  His Gedcom contains an Elizabeth Peach who was baptised 10 January 1791.  She was presumably baptised in Stapenhill, Derbyshire because all nine of her siblings were baptised in Stapenhill.  In some eyes, this 1791 Elizabeth is a better prospect than the 1789 Elizabeth because she has advantages.  Frank found the marriage date of the parents, the maiden name of the mother (Heape), the burial dates of both parents and therefore their approximate years of birth.  Very little of this can be found by a search of IGI, so I looked at the Stapenhill IGI.

It is possible to start with the World-wide index of the IGIs on the website of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but I prefer to start with the IGI index for England
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm#PageTitle

I click on "Derby (N-Z)" and then find Stapenhill.  I choose M058832 for marriages which is labelled "1660-1810".  On opening it I can find after quite a bit of labour that there are no entries for the period 1770-1799.  If instead I click on J058832 for Christenings which is labelled "1660-1810" I find there is a gap from 1771-1799.  There will be several more gaps, for example I know that there is a gap from 1748-1761 in the Christenings.  What are missing are exact years.  These will be the Bishop's Transcripts for the years in question.  The missing years can be researched by a visit to the appropriate County Records Office - the data is on the Parish Records.

If there are no missing years in the area of interest then I discount this Parish.

[D_Anthony_H]

Sorry the word is Gedcom (i.e. "Gedcom format") and not gedom.

[D_Anthony_H]

I intend in 2013 to go to the Derbyshire Records Office and among other things look carefully at the Parish Records for Ashover to search for the marriage of John Peach who I believe is the Uncle of my Elizabeth Peach (Elizabeth matches a 3 June 1787 Christening in Ashover).
Also I plan to go to the Staffordshire Records Office and among other things look carefully at the Parish Records for Penkridge to search for the marriage of John Peach the possible Uncle of my Elizabeth Peach (Elizabeth matches a 5 November 1786 Christening in Penkridge).

The statement above is my decision which is a consequence of three IGI Christening searches of Derbyshire, Staffordshire, and Nottinghamshire.  The searches start from the page
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi
The Derbyshire search consisted of inputting "Elizabeth" "Peach", clicking on "Birth", inputting "Derbyshire" "1785" and "1788".   This gave me three results.  There are no IGI Marriage records for Ashover so that stays on my list.  The second result was a 3 June 1787 Christening in a place called "Dethwick".  The date-and-particulars were absolutely identical to the Ashover Parish date-and-particulars - and since Google maps cannot find Dethwick, I crossed Dethwick off the list.  The third result was in the Parish of "Barrow with Twyford", and a search of marriages of Peach from 1782 to 1788 revealed that there were Marriage records for each and every year, so I crossed "Barrow with Twyford" off the list.

The Staffordshire search was essentially similar and I found a Christening in Penkridge and there is no IGI Marriage for Penkridge (for 1782-1788) - so Penkridge stays on my list.  The other two Christenings were both in Ellastone which is covered by the IGI for marriages for each of the years from 1782 to 1789 inclusive - so I crossed Ellastone off the list.

The Nottinghamshire search uncovered no Christenings of Elizabeth Peach for the date-range that I was interested in.

To be realistic, it is extremely unlikely that either of these Parishes (Ashover and Penkridge) will have the pot of gold that I have been searching for these thirty years - but I really do not have time to search within all of the three County Records Office, each of which has considerably more than a hundred Parish Records.

Footnotes
(1)  It is ironic that although there are a handful of Christenings of Elizabeth Peach in the nearby Counties (within the 1785-1788 inclusive search dates) there are none in Leicestershire - and yet the 1841 Census return has a "Y" against Elizabeth's name
(2) This posting was drafted yesterday and I have now carefully checked it through. In the cold light of a new September day I am very disappointed that the two Parishes (Ashover and Penkridge) are so far way from the Leicestershire boundary.  The distance means that the "Y" is not a misunderstanding of where the boundary is, but is better described as a serious mistake in answering a simple question asked by the AdlZ enumerator (so I am sceptical that Ashover or Penkridge will reward my search for the Peach/Handly marriage).  Stapenhill is worth looking at.  Does anyone know of a map of Derbyshire Parishes on the Internet?

[Pels.]

Hi again,

I've been reading your words with great interest. Have a look at this first :

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/Parishes.html

Once you've found the village or town you want - by clicking on 'nearby places' at the top of the page you can find all the places within the locality, also finding the distance they are from where you are looking.

Also included in the above link :

Parish descriptions are also available on Ann Andrews' Derbyshire's Parishes, 1811 pages.

Plus here's a site I often refer to, but I'm not sure it's appropriate for what you need :

http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/

Pels.

[Pels.]

Just a thought, but have you considered doing this by a process of elimination in a different way.

For example, trying to find the outcome of Elisabeth Peach who was baptised on the 6th December, 1789. If you could prove what happened to her then clearly she's not the one who married Anthony Hoffman.

Pels.