Archibald Allen from Carlow and Ballybrack

[maggiegorey]

Just been tlking to my sister, who nearly choked on her supper!!!
Stil cant get over it.

Having said that, we all know that you only had to look crooked at someone in those days to be slammed in the clink.

I dont know for certain, but I have a vague memory of being told that he had been in the constabulary, and I know that somewhere someone found a reference to being some class of a military/police pensioner, so unless he took exception to something some young upstart said......!!!
Its driving me mad to think I'll never know the full story

[taramcdsmall]

Hi

I will send you a PM !

Tara

[maggiegorey]

OK Tara

[maggiegorey]

Im thoroughly fed up.
After getting all the info the other day from this site, I seem to have come to another dead end.

We know archie was born in Carlow, in 1832/33. and died in Ballybrack at the age of 65, and his death cert lists the date as 1898, so thats about right.
The only marriage cert we can find is for (presumably) the same Archie to Alicia Hynes/Hyens in Dublin South in 1867.

We know he married Catherine (Kate) Byrne) because all of the children including my grandfather list Kate Byrne as their mother, but we cant find a marriage for them.

Now I do realise that there is a possibility that they werent married, but a lot of their children were baptised in the Pro cathedral.
I know I can try the Pro-Cathedral for the marriage cert (its about the only placeI have'nt tried yet) but what happened to Alicia?? We cant find a death cert for her.
Also Kate was from Wicklow, so its likely they could have been married there (she had relatives in Bray).

None of the usual sites have thrown up ANY info, and Family search just keeps giving me Archie and Alicia's marriage cert.

Anyone have any ideas?

[shanew147]

......
Now I do realise that there is a possibility that they werent married, but a lot of their children were baptised in the Pro cathedral.
I know I can try the Pro-Cathedral for the marriage cert (its about the only placeI have'nt tried yet) but what happened to Alicia?? We cant find a death cert for her.
Also Kate was from Wicklow, so its likely they could have been married there (she had relatives in Bray).
.....

Kate/Catherine lists her place of birth as Co. Wicklow - so I'd say a marriage in Wicklow is a possibility, although the older children I see for the couple on the 1901 census have Dublin city as place of birth. Those born later have Co. Dublin.

When and where were the children born, especially the eldest child  ?

I think the Archibald / Alica may be a different couple to your Archibald..

On the 1901 return Catherine and most of the children are listed as Church of Ireland - so not sure the Pro-Cathedral is the right place to look for a marriage....particular if it was mixed denomination, although the Kate and the remaining family are all listed RC in 1911 ?


Shane

[shanew147]

I'm not seeing any marriage for Archibald and Catherine - checked civil and Dublin City parish records. Based on Catherine's age I was guessing it would have been late 1870s or very early 1880s...

Following up via possible baptisms on the free Index search on Roots Ireland throws up a possible clue ... although it creates a problem with the timeline unless Catherine's age is underestimated quite a bit on the census returns.

From what I can see a Robert Allen was baptised in South Co. Dublin in 1876 - looks like Kingstown/Dún Laoghaire. I didn't work out the full names for the parents but the father begins with 'Arch' and the mother is 'Kat..' Byrne

The record seems to appear in extracted records with a mis-ranscription of Catherine's surname..

  name: Robert Allen
  birth date: 17 Dec 1876
  birthplace: Dublin, Ireland
  Parents : Archibold Allen & Catherine Ryrice

Based on the BMD Index, the birth was in Rathdown district, which includes South East Co. Dublin, including Dún Laoghaire and Ballybrack etc


Shane

[taramcdsmall]

Hi Maggie,

My one thinking re the marriage of Archibald and Kate is the following:

I have been told before (by a friend who hire a professional geneologist to find paperwork for her) that members of the RIC would get married through their 'barracks' - sorry this isn't the correct word but Mammy brain has turned to mush today !!

Anyway, what I was told was that this was for pension purposes of some sort, but that these marriages sometimes weren't registered. It was then up to the couple to get married (am not sure if it was civily or through church) at a later stage.

This can sometimes result in some children appearing to have been born out of wedlock, even though their parents HAD married.

My reasoning here is that if your family story is true that that Archibald was in the RIC that maybe they had the 'police marriage' but maybe due to different religions (or any number of other reasons) never got around the second marriage.

Hi Shane, have you ever heard this 'story' - as I would love to know how true it is.

Tara

[maggiegorey]

Hi Shane and Tara

The Robert listed as being born in 1876 is Arch and Kates son - I noticed that the spelling of Kates name was wrong, but it was corrected in a second listing.


Im beginning to thinki the marriage does have something do do with the military records, because I noticed on Arch and Alicias cert that he is listed as being from Portobello, and married in Rathmines.
well, from what I know, Portobello barracks would have been in the Rathmines district, although I have asked questions of the family as to whether this couple are in fact the same Arch.

I used to think that having family names was a blessing, but not any more!!!

Is there any way I can check "barracks" marriages, or does this term mean that there wont be any record??

Thank you both very much for the look-upos.
Maggie

[shanew147]

I havn't come across that exact situation - but have seen a complication re marriage in that RIC men needed to have served a minimum of 7 year before being allowed marry - so sometime they married in a church without informing their superiors and then married again once they had done their seven years

btw - I read the comment re Allen family History with the Irish Constabulary as being on the other side of the law...


Shane