Baptismal Help * COMPLETED *

[shanew147]

an actual birth cert might provide a few clues - i.e. see if place of birth (Col. 2) is different to dwelling place of father (Col. 5).. might show that even though the birth was in somewhere in Doagh district that the usual residence was closer to Shankill. The informant and their address may be clues also



Shane

[TheWhuttle]

Steve,

Yes, It was quite common for births (particularly the earliest ones in a new family) to take place back at the home of the wife's parents.

I know of an example where a family were resident in Dublin, the father's employment being there, but the first two births occurred back at the distaff side's "home" at Randalstown (where the maternal grandmother could be in immediate attendance).

Children were sometimes given one name at birth, then another at baptism.

There was no strong religious incentive for Protestants to indulge in the rapid baptism of infants (though many did).

Being a resident in a particular parish of the established church (CoI) meant that you had an automatic entitlement to be allowed to be baptised, married and buried in the parish church there.

The dates are after 1845 when the great Dissenter's Relief Act was legislated, so there was no longer any need for dissenters to get married (usually as a secondary ceremony) in a CoI church in order to preserve the full legality of children.  So, you are probably safe to conclude that Elizabeth was of a Pb persuasion, and that Charles was CoI.

It was common for women to adopt the religion of their partner on marriage.

Capt. Jock

[weemantam]

Cap'n Jock,

Thanks for your reply. I'm still trying to assert the info provided (re presbyterian etc) which most of my McMurrays appear to be. It's realy an enormous pity that so many of the Irish records were lost (purposefully and accidentally) since, once upon a time, all this would be at our fingertips.

I think most of the confusion has occurred because databases have this overwhelming insistence to put SOMETHING in the date of birth, even if it's nonsense.

I have a loose thread which ties both the first born girls in this family being in Doagh yet registered in Shankhill. So I have to say there is a really good shout at this being the 'distaff's side' (had to look that one up) 's parents house where the granny to be would be on hand.

Thanks for the info though I suspect I'm going to have to refer back to it as more of this bit of the tree unfolds.

Just one quick question though. The Scots (that's me) and Irish have a reputed naming pattern habit. WHilst I have found this to be true for most of my tree up until the 1960's, I havent come across an instance of it in Irish records. How popular was the naming pattern in NI and did it reflect the same pattern as Scots? (1st Boy = his paternal Grandad then Maternal Grandad the dad / 1st Girl = maternal Gran then paternal gran then mum)

Ta muchly

Steve

[aghadowey]

Ulster naming pattern was as you describe and some families certainly seemed to follow it at least until the last few generations but other families didn't so it really can't be used to guess at names of grandparents, etc.
Another Ulster custom, especially comon amongst Presbyterian families, is to name children after minister, doctor, schoolteacher, landlord, etc. Also, surnames (family ones and otherwise) often used as middle or even first names for boys and girls.

As far as 'lost' Irish records- the biggest problem is census records. No civil registrations (birth, marriages, deaths) were destroyed. Many Church of Ireland registers sent to Dublin for safekeeping were destroyed but surviving Presbyterian registers are almost always in local custody/available in PRONI, etc.

[weemantam]

All sounds about right. At least I know what to look out for now (well mostly). I'm fairly sure I wouldn't name my kid after the minister though!

Thanks for the heads up.

Cheers for now.

Steve

[jason mac]

I suspect this is the missing McMurray family you are looking for:-

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/McMurray-772

However I am having trouble verifying the details of the family.  Rosey McMurray was a witness at the wedding of McTrustry/McMurray.  She was also present at the birth of one of the McTrustry children.

I have what I think is the marriages of quite a few of the McMurray children but to make matters more complex there is a second George McMurray who baptised children in Ballyclare Reformed Presbyterian at the same time as George McMurray baptised his children at Ballyeaston.  Although George McMurray baptised his children in Ballyeaston, his residence is stated as Grange of Ballywalter which is just south of Doagh village.  I don't believe the 2 George McMurrays are the same person.  George McMurray who baptised his children in Ballyclare appears to have moved into Belfast. 

[weemantam]

I have the certificate with Rosy as a witness also. The only related Rose I have is the sister of the Elizabeth McMurray who is in that certificate. Her name was Rose Ann McMurray and would still have had the surname McMurray in that 1858 certificate since she, herself, didn't marry until 1874 at which time I have an index record of marrying William Kerr. My research suggests George McMurray was married to Jane Morrow or Moore (etc). George was a gardener and died 1871. Jane died in 1899, both in Belfast.

What is really interesting is that George McMurray died on 17th May 1871 on Combermere Street. This location lies about 2 miles south of his probable residence in Springmount Street. On digging a little I discovered that the address in Combermere Street was laterally resided by a James McMurray. Until now, I had nothing which identified who James McMurray was but, if you have already established this, I would be delighted to see what evidentiary link there was. For info the complete family I have in my research is:

George McMurray abt 1820 to 1871 (Gardener)
Jane Moore or Morrow abt 1821 to 1889
Children:
Elizabeth McMurray abt 1840 to bef 1900 (m. Charles McTrusty 1858) < My relatives
Rose Ann McMurray abt 1840-? (m. William Kerr 1874)
George McMurray abt 1844-1906 (m. Jane Matilda White 1869) - painter & cloth printer
Thomas McMurray abt 1848-? (m. Annie McGimpsey 1871) - Shirt & collar cutter
Margaret McMurray 1850-1913(usa) (m. George Little 1870 usa)
Ellen McMurray 1856-aft1919(usa) no record of marriage found.

Obviously I'm keen to avoid cross-overs of families so anything you can find which rectifies my own research would be appreciated. If relevant I have a Thomas McMurray who was a sailmaker and married an Elizabeth (unknown) who may relate to the other George.

I have a tree on ancestry called the Brennan Tree which is public and will afford you more detail.

[jason mac]

Your marriage for Rose matches what I have, as does the match for George's occupation of gardener.

The Combermere Street George McMurray is the Ballyclare George rather than the Ballywalter George.  The wife is Susan or Susanna Allen.

This family stated out resident in Milltown, Ballyclare where they baptised a number of children before moving into Belfast.  Milltown is only about a mile distant from the Grange of Ballywalter.

George McMurray and Susanna Allen baptised a number of children in Ballyclare Non Subscribing Presbyterian Church in the period from 1839 to 1846.

22/06/1839 - no name  Susan Allen   Milltown
29/05/1842 - Margaret
04/09/1842 - no name  Susan Allen Milltown
15/05/1844 - Margaret
22/04/1846 - Andrew   Farmer Ballyclare

The family then appear to trace to Belfast, with 2 further baptisms registered. 
20/02/1849 - Mary Ann McMurray baptsed in St Annes COI
09/06/1854 - Susanna McMurray baptised in St Annes COI

Mary Ann died at Combermere Street in 1871, same year as George McMurray.
James McMurray married Margaret Lowes of Ballyclare in 1864 at May Street Presbyterian.  His occupation is given as seaman.  A witness was Henry McMurray.  One of James's children was named Susan. 

[jason mac]

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06074/4732190.pdf

This is the link to Susan McMurray of Combermere Street's death in 1891.  With a son called Hugh in attendance.  She is the wife of George McMurray, a labourer.