Maintenance Orders

[LizzieW]

On FindMyPast I have found the details of a maintenance order which gives the name of the father as John Brand a carpenter of Sleaford.  My 3 x g.grandfather was called John Brand and lived in Sleaford at the time.  Later on my 3 x g.grandfather is described as a chair maker.  Would a carpenter become a chair maker, or are the two occupations totally different?

My 3 x g.grandfather appears to have married in Holbeach in 1809, yet all his children of the marriage were baptised in Sleaford, including the first one baptised only 2 months after the marriage.  The only reason I can think of marrying in Holbeach is that his wife was baptised there, so possibly lived there, then after the marriage they returned to my 3 x g.grandfather's home town.

The question is, how do I find out whether the John Brand of Sleaford who fathered a child in 1807, is the same John Brand that is my ancestor?

Lizzie

[pamthomas]

In which record collection on FindMyPast did you find the entry?
I can't see any obvious reference. 

[LizzieW]

I did a search on Parish records - baptisms, Lincolnshire for a John Brand birth 1810 +/- 5 years, as I was looking for the baptism of one of my 2 x g.grandfather's brothers and only one name appeared dated 1807.  When I went to view, it wasn't a baptism but a Maintenance order for a female child, father John Brand.

Lizzie

[pamthomas]

No wonder I couldn't find it.   It so shouldn't be in baptisms.

I can't find a LFHS  publication to fit the 'Lincolnshire Parish Bastardy cases 1647-1849', so I think that you will have to contact the LFHS to ask if they can point you to the correct one.
http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk/

I have checked the index to Bastardy Papers in the Kesteven Quarter Sessions 1700-1839, and there's no John Brand listed as putative father. (The index is part of the original Poor Law series, part 8, published in booklet form.)

I would say it sounds highly likely that your 3xgt grandfather is the guilty man, as I think carpenter and chair maker are closely related occupations.

You might like to know that a John Brand married an Elizabeth Barrand in Sleaford in 1809. Second marriage, left-hand page.
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=628744&iid=324158

[LizzieW]

Thank you for finding that marriage in Sleaford, that makes far more sense than marrying someone in Holbeach and then going back to Sleaford for the rest of his life.  I'll see what I can find out about Elizabeth Barrand.

[LizzieW]

So, if my 3 x g.grandfather is the man named in the maintenance order and the mother was called Mary Barratt,  he then married an Elizabeth Barrand.  However, in the 1841 census, my 3 x g.grandfather's wife is named as Mary.  Is it possible that Mary Barratt and Elizabeth Barrand are the same person?  I really need to see a copy of the maintenance order to see if Mary Barratt was Mary Barrand and the name has been transcribed incorrectly.

I have the death certificate of Elizabeth Brand (nee Barrand) who died 27 November 1842 and was buried 29 November 1842 in St Denys, New Sleaford and that states that her husband was John Brand.

Lizzie

ps.  Do you know if there are any records of Baptisms in Sleaford in the 1780s?  I can't find any, but it could just be that I'm not searching properly.

[pamthomas]

In the maintenance order, according to the transcript, the mother was Mary Barnatt, not Barratt.
And, yes, you do need to see the maintenance order, which is why I said that you need to contact Lincolnshire FHS to find out the database the transcription is in. Then you have a chance of finding the reference number if you need to order a copy of the document from Lincoln Archives. If you can visit the Archives then they should be able to trace the document simply by the place and year, and then the names. (Archives might not need the document reference if you order by post, but it's always better to quote one.)

On Elizabeth's death certificate does it give John's occupation at all? Or is the address Southgate, which is where they were living in the 1841 census?

I would say that it is highly unlikely that Mary Barnatt and Elizabeth Barrand are the same person. It's more likely a simple case of enumerator error in the 1841 census entry.
From what I can see the children's mother is always named as Elizabeth when they are baptised. No children listed with Mary Brand as mother between 1821 and 1841 in Sleaford St Denys baptisms.

FreeREG will be very useful in helping you to find the dates of the baptisms.
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/
Search for baptisms, John Brand, 1818 +/- 10 years, in Sleaford, Lincolnshire. It's not as silly as it might sound, because the results will contain not only children called John Brand but also children whose father is called John Brand. One word of warning is to always check the father's occupation if given, as there can be more than person with the same name having children baptised in that church.
If you check the burials (best to search on the name of the child) you will find two of the children died as infants.

Sleaford baptisms 1743 - 1812 are in this register (as well as marriages 1743 -1754.)
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Baptisms-and-marriages-/814202.record?pt=T
Baptisms for 1786 start on image 40; 1809 start on image 65.
If you go back a few images, you might find an entry for Mary Barnatt's child being baptised circa 1806.

Sleaford baptisms 1813-1836
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Baptisms/513556.record?pt=T

You might also like to know that a Mary Barnett married a Robert Cobb in Sleaford in 1807. (Reference from LFHS Lafford deanery marriage index 1700-1813. Index now re-issued on a CD containing 4 adjacent deaneries and more detail from the PR.)
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=628744&iid=324152

The trick with searching for PRs on LLTP is to read the help section first, especially the 'how to search for parish registers'. Read to the end of the document, because it gives a list of the parish names to input. Then in the 'with the exact phrase' box on the 'Advanced search' page enter the parish name ending with PAR 1, e.g. for Sleaford enter Sleaford PAR 1. Just be careful because you do sometimes get 'rogue' results included. In the case of Sleaford, for some reason you also get Asgarby by Sleaford results as well, but they are clearly marked against the 'reference'.
PRs prior to 1813 are often called 'general registers', and depending on the years covered can contain baptisms, marriages, and burials in any combination.  Sometimes there is more than one register covering the same or similar dates so it's worth looking through the complete results list.

[LizzieW]

Pam

Thank you for all your information.  I'll read the Help pages on Lincstothepast before I try any more searching.  Up till now I've only searched for Boston and that was fairly easy.

On Elizabeth's death certificate it just states that Elizabeth Brand died in New Sleaford on 27 November 1842, she was aged 55 and the wife of John Brand, Chairmaker.  The informant was an Anne Taylor (don't know who she is, probably a neighbour or the local person who was called upon when people were dying) who was present at the death.  Her address was also given as New Sleaford.  So this is obviously the correct death certificate.

I'll contact Lincs FHS to find out which database the transcription is in, then I'll contact Lincolnshire Archives as I live too far to visit.  I know they take quite a long time to send out photocopies as I've dealt with them in the past, but I imagine they are very busy.

I thought John and Elizabeth Brand only had 8 children, but checking on FreeREG I found a girl called Marian baptised in 1810.  I have 3 of the children dying young, 2 x Williams one 1812-1812, another 1814 to 1824 and then a Henry 1816 to 1820.  They must have liked the name William, because after having 3 more sons, one they called Henry after one of the dead children, they then had a 4th son (my 2 x g.grandfather) and called him William too.  It wasn't until the baptism of one of the children in 1814 that John's occupation was listed.

You might also like to know that a Mary Barnett married a Robert Cobb in Sleaford in 1807

Interestingly, on FreeREG there are 4 children baptised in Sleaford between 1809 and 1820, all of whom have a mother called Mary Barnatt (the children are all listed twice with variations of the mother's surname and all of whom are illegitimate).  Which of the two Mary's had a child with John Brand I can't guess.  One of the children she had baptised was called Thomas West, so I guess it's a possibility that that was the name of that one's father.

Thank you once again for your help.

Lizzie

[pamthomas]

Pam

Thank you for all your information.  I'll read the Help pages on Lincstothepast before I try any more searching.  Up till now I've only searched for Boston and that was fairly easy.

On Elizabeth's death certificate it just states that Elizabeth Brand died in New Sleaford on 27 November 1842, she was aged 55 and the wife of John Brand, Chairmaker.  The informant was an Anne Taylor (don't know who she is, probably a neighbour or the local person who was called upon when people were dying) who was present at the death.  Her address was also given as New Sleaford.  So this is obviously the correct death certificate.

The fact that it says John's occupation was chair maker is (in my opinion) proof that the name of Mary instead of Elizabeth on the 1841 census is an error.

I'll contact Lincs FHS to find out which database the transcription is in, then I'll contact Lincolnshire Archives as I live too far to visit.  I know they take quite a long time to send out photocopies as I've dealt with them in the past, but I imagine they are very busy.

I thought John and Elizabeth Brand only had 8 children, but checking on FreeREG I found a girl called Marian baptised in 1810.  I have 3 of the children dying young, 2 x Williams one 1812-1812, another 1814 to 1824 and then a Henry 1816 to 1820.  They must have liked the name William, because after having 3 more sons, one they called Henry after one of the dead children, they then had a 4th son (my 2 x g.grandfather) and called him William too.  It wasn't until the baptism of one of the children in 1814 that John's occupation was listed.

Marian died young as well, in 1810, so that would make 4 children.
A new-style register was introduced in 1813 which had a column for the father's occupation. (Or often 'single woman', if the child was illegitimate.)

Interestingly, on FreeREG there are 4 children baptised in Sleaford between 1809 and 1820, all of whom have a mother called Mary Barnatt (the children are all listed twice with variations of the mother's surname and all of whom are illegitimate).  Which of the two Mary's had a child with John Brand I can't guess.  One of the children she had baptised was called Thomas West, so I guess it's a possibility that that was the name of that one's father.

Thank you once again for your help.

Lizzie

Drat! I remember seeing one of those baptisms somewhere and then forgot about it, otherwise I wouldn't have been so keen to point out the Mary Barnett marriage.
I would say that the Mary Barnatt who had the other illegitimate children was the one who had a child with John.