Missing marriage

[rainbowuk]

Hi,

Was wondering if someone had access to the parish registers for Sculcoates/Hull area.

I have the birth certificate for Clement Arthur HIRONS and his parents are down as Frederick HIRONS ( Drapers van man)  and Annie YATES.

They had 4 children between 1919 and 1925..the first 3 in Sculcoates district, the 4th in Hull.

I have searched the marriage indexes for any marriage that looks like a possibility ( all of England and Wales and Scotland) and have come to a blank.

I have found possible deaths for Frederick (1929) and Annie (1973) in Yorkshire.

If someone has access to the records it would be great if you could check for the years abt 1915-1919 in Sculcoates and Hull areas as wondering if it is one of those odd marriages that has been missed off the indexes for some reason.

Thanks very much,

Susan

[CaroleW]

Hi

It's possible they never married or married in Ireland/Scotland/IOM.  To search parish registers you have to know which church they married in.   

If Frederick did die in 1929 - he was born approx 1891 and Annie 1892 but I can't see a 1901 entry for him

Have you found him on the 1911 census as I can't see anything in Yorkshire on the free index

[bendywendy]

Marriage - found nothing    I have checked on Scotlands People and there are no marriages between Hirons - Yates between 1911-1930  I have also tried with just her name and then his name, nothing and also variants and also marriages as individuals, nothing.
There are 6 marriages for Annie Yates between 1915 - 1920 but without credits I cannot tell you who the other half is, but I do know the mans forename is not Frederick.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have had a look for Annie n Fred, found these possibles for Annie:

FreeBMD
Sep Q 1890 Sculcoates - Annie Elizabeth Yates
Jun Q 1892 Sculcoates - Annie Yates

From 1891 & 1901 cen info @ St Marks, Sutton, Hull - Annie Elizabeth Yates is the dau of Robert W Yates & Harriet C Carmichael
Cannot find her on following census, there is a possible marriage Annie E Yates to either George A Cameron or Henry Earish @ Hull Dec 1911

Maybe this one is yours, that is if she came from Sculcoates ??
1901 cen info @ St Peter, Sculcoates, Hull - Annie Yates is the dau of Edwin Yates & Annie Yates
She is on next census 80 Damson Lane, Hull, still with father but mothers name is Frances Amelia Yates . Annie and three sisters all worked at Reckitts

bendywendy

[LorrW]

Hi From Australia, I found this post when I was looking for any information on my Great grandparents - Robert William Yates and Harriet Jane Yates who lived and died in Hull. One of their daughters and My Grandmother was Frances Ellen Yates who had a sister Annie Elizabeth Yates. So it is possible there is a link. My grandmother left Hull during world war 1 and came to Australia with another sister. I cant find her sisters name. Her parents died in Hull...Robert in 1927 and Harriet in 1933 and both are buried in the cemetery in hull. If the cemetery still exists. I am aware that St Marks was bombed and demolished. i am trying to find out more about Robert and Harriet and hope to get to Hull. if Annie is a relative of yours we may also be related. Looking forward to linking. Lorraine

[bendywendy]

Hi LorrW
From what I can find about your grandmother Frances Ellen Yates, it is very possible she had a dau Ellen I Yates birth reg June Q 1914 Hull and died Jun 1973 Withernsea, East Yorkshire. Ellen Yates married Thomas Marris Dec Q 1939 @ Hull. Thomas Marris born c1911 Hull and died Jun 1985 Withernsea. Children: 4 daughters birth registered Holderness and because they look like they are still living I cannot put their names on here, but you can find these on:  http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl  this site is word sensitive and will only find the exact names you input, but if you click births, then surname Marris, mothers surname Yates and date range 1939-1973 don't do counties etc., this will bring up 3 of the 4 daughters names, I have tried various combinations to find the other child, maybe this child was illigitimate or born elsewhere.

Frances Ellen Yates sailed 17 Sep 1914 but there is no one else listed as family travelling with her, maybe talk of the "sister" was in fact her dau Ellen which looks likely she was left in England   It could be that the family disowned Frances for her "misdemeanor" and was told to leave. Do you know for certain that another sister joined Frances in Australia

Robert William Yates birth reg April Q 1856 Sculcoates  possible death reg Mar 1928 aged 72 years Sculcoates
Harriet Carmichael birth reg  Dec Q 1861 Sculcoates   possible death reg Mar 1933 aged 71 Sculcoates
Children:
Harriet Jane birth reg Mar 1886 Sculcoates married Dec 1908 Sculcoates Alfred Jackson
James William birth reg Mar 1888 Sculcoates & death reg Dec 1895 Hull 7 years
Annie Elizabeth birth reg Sep 1890 Sculcoates
Frances Ellen birth reg Dec 1892 Sculcoates

1911

1911 census information removed. Only the Original Poster may post details from the 1911 census,  others may give information from the free index only, not the images.

It is very possible Frances's dau Ellen was either left in the care of this Home or with her family, but it looks likely Frances was in this Home for some particular reason, all the girls listed with her are aged 15 - 27 years of age, could it have been a home for orphanced/wayward/unmarried mothers and the children are then removed to another Children's Home and the mothers found work to make them respectable again   If the latter is the case then was there another child born to Frances Ellen Yates too   Maybe some other rootschat member can shed some light upon this  Convent and the boarders that resided there, especially given the ages above

http://www.ourladyofmercy.org.uk/whatwedo/dsp-default.cfm?loadref=153  this dosen't give much information at all c1911

bendywendy

[bendywendy]

Death reg Ellen Irene Marris @ Holderness, Yorkshire 2a 171, Jun 1973, aged 59 yrs DOB 25 March 1914
Cannot find any passenger list for her travelling to Australia in either surname.
Death reg Thomas Marris @ Hull, Yorkshire 7, 1049, June 1985, aged 74 years DOB 29 March 1911
bendywendy

[LorrW]

Hi BendyWendy

This is a great help, thank you so much. Certainly has given me a lot to think about and go on. I always thought there must have been a reason Frances came to Australia in 1914. I am believing now she came alone. I have not been able to find any record of her arrival in Australia so I will next go to the Archives department here and check Yates. Do your records show the name of the ship she sailed on?

Possibly the story about coming with  a sister was a fabrication and she came alone. It is a very sad story, but I realise from this I have a connection with living relatives in UK. Will think about what to do about this for a while. It is very possible Ellen never knew about her mother and these living relatives have no idea about their real grandmother ( the grandmother we share). As I am 63 they are older, so it is a very sensitive matter. I have spent time on google maps finding various places you have given me.

Frances, known by all as Nellie, spent 5 years as a house servant (hard work in early 1900 Australia) on country properties and then married my grandfather in 1919 and my dad was born in 1920. They had 3 other children and she lived to be 88. I knew her very well.

Do your records show her mother as having a middle name? I thought Carmichael (which I had on documents) was her maiden name. Also thought her mother was Harriet Jane and I note daughter had same name.

Is there any record of what became of Annie Elizabeth - I was told by my mother that Annie married twice?? With possible surnames of Eanish? and Smith??? writing hard to read.

Frances had some little In Memorium cards among her things, sent to her by the Vicar of St Marks Church in Hull. The following died on these dates according to the cards.
* Robert William Yates - 2nd Feb 1927
*Harriet Yates 21 January 1933 hard to reda this one
* Harriet Jackson 14 March 1930
*Henry Eanish? 22 May 1929 maybe Annie's first husband
They are all buried in the cemetery at Hull on Hedon road which I believe now is still there from my new research.

Thank you again, certainly lots to look into.

My interest also is to find out the generation before Robert and Harriet...my great great grandparents.

Sincere regards
Lorraine

[LorrW]

Hi again bendywendy,

I have completed the search as you instructed for the 3 daughters and have their names.

I guess the only way to verify if Ellen is Frances's daughter is to get Ellen's birth certificate?
Cheers
Lorraine

[bendywendy]

Good morning Lorraine
If you go back up this thread a little you will see where I have mentioned a few things to the original thread, in particular this one below, which now look likely as the marriage for Annie Elizabeth to Henry Earish as you have confirmed.

From 1891 & 1901 cen info @ St Marks, Sutton, Hull - Annie Elizabeth Yates is the dau of Robert W Yates & Harriet C Carmichael
Cannot find her on following census, there is a possible marriage Annie E Yates to either George A Cameron or Henry Earish @ Hull Dec 1911

Later today I will find the info you have asked about.

I can state the info I got about dau Ellen Irene came from a public tree on Ancestry and this tree has her mother named same as your grandmother Frances Ellen but no father noted. Do you have Ancestry, if not, I can contact this tree owner on your behalf asking whatever you would like me to ask, it could be that dau Ellen Irene was never able to find out what happened to her mother and therefore the descendent's would be pleased to have contact with you, maybe that is why there is only a brief public tree for her and they could be hoping someone will contact them.

bendywendy