Charles SMYTH, Artist and Picture Dealer

[shanew147]

I checked Thom's 1857 for Dublin - no sign of a Charles Smyth/Smith as an Artist or Picture dealer in the alphabetical or trades index.

edit : also checked 1858 and 1863


Shane

[taramcdsmall]

Hi there,

I see from another site that you are trying to prove that Solomon Smyth from Ballybay and Charles Smyth were possible brothers

solomon smyth 1901 census

Solomon Smyth states that the was born in Monaghan which extends your search area even FURTHER

Also if this is the same Solomon that means he would be nearer in age to Frederick than to Charles

I have also seen on the other site that you have documentation to say that Frederick WAS baptised in 1878 but born in 1859 so there is no point in us looking on irishgenealogy for a baptism in Dublin - UNLESS that is re was baptised in 1878 into a different religion - just a theory.

Tara

[johnupatree]

Thanks Shane, very much appreciated.

Tara, thank you for your input, I will do my best to answer your questions and hopefully clarify/complicate things further (delete as applicable!)

The reference to ‘raised in Wicklow mountains’ is from a family letter, I have no confirmation of this, although I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. The letter was from one of his sons.

I have no mention/record of Charles ever being in England from the family documents I have.  Frederick did not have any other family in England that I am aware of. His life from 1882 is very well recorded, birth and wedding certificates, letters etc.

No typo regarding the baptism, I have the original letter confirming the details from the parish concerned.

Frederick had strong male genes, out of his 12 children, only three were female. His first daughter was Elizabeth Muriel, followed by Kate and Elsie, neither of whom survived past childhood..  This is a very interesting line of thought, the name Elizabeth figures down the subsequent generations;  a very good point, thank you.

To give you some background regarding the Solomon connection.  We believe from family letters that Frederick was related to John DILLON, a renowned Irish politician. Following a posting regarding this in 2002 I was contacted by Brian Dillon-Smyth offering to explain the connection, he never did and all subsequent emails/letters etc have been ignored. However I do know that the Dillon-Smyth connection is through his grandfather, Patrick Joseph SMYTH marrying Anne Elizabeth DILLON. Patrick was the son of Solomon Peter SMYTH and the grandson of Solomon SMYTH.

Solomon Peter SMYTH was born 1851, closer to Fredericks 1859 surely, than his father Solomon, who must have been born at least 16 years earlier. Thereby, in my opinion, making it more probable that Charles and Solomon were brothers.

I am looking at the possibility of a re baptism, hence the request. In later life he described himself as an Agnostic, so no clues there. What is interesting to me is that Solomon and family were Roman Catholic, I wonder if Frederick renounced the faith and converted, hence the emigration. It may also possibly account for the lack of communication from Brian Smyth???

Phew!

Hope all that clarifies rather than muddles things. Your time and suggestions are very much appreciated, thank you again

[taramcdsmall]

Hi there,

Ok So

1. You are saying that Soloman Peter's father was also called Solomon and that this Solomon Sr and Charles COULD be brothers both born early 1820's ish....

You have obviously seen Solomon on this peerage report but there is no backround on him

solomon smyth

Looking at all my usual sites though I can't find any connection to Charles and Solomon (that's not to say there isn't one, just that I can't see it)

Did you get Solomon Peter's marriage cert to Bridget Mary Coyle to see if that can give you any leads ?

Solomon Peter Smyth
Apr-May-Jun 1888
District: Castleblayney
Volume: 1 Page: 507

Have you tried to trace anything for Laurence Smyth to see if it gives you some leads ?

Tara
 

[taramcdsmall]

Looks like getting this might answer you questions !

http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_060025

Tara

[johnupatree]

Hi Tara,

Thanks again for your time and input.  Yes, as I could not make the link any other way I decided to work backwards from the Smyth-Dillon marriage between Patrick and Ann. I used Burkes Peerage as the starting point. No I have not got the cert for Solomon and Bridget, the fathers name came from a posting I made and someone kindly checked the parish registers for me.

I should explain that virtually all of my genealogical work was destroyed by a very venegeful ex partner, I came home to find that my PC, backup HD and all files, had been thrown from the first floor window, in the rain. Not good. So I have very little in the way of paper records etc. Thankfully I had the GEDCOM file uploaded to several sites. Sadly I lost the majority of my contacts names etc and their emails. Ho hum.

Wow, the link you sent looks VERY promising!!  I have tried searching for Laurence, given his uncommon christian name I thought it would be simple, but as yet no joy. I will continue though.

Now all I need to do is get hold of this manuscript, will have a look later and see what the otions are for ordering/viewing etc

Many thanks

[johnupatree]

I have contacted the National Library, unfortunately the gent dealing with copies is on holiday for two weeks, so a little wait is in order!

Meanwhile I have another possible line to investigate and I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction.  In Shaws 1850 there is a Charles F smyth esq and a Robert Smyth & Sons, all residing at & Stephens Green. Robert is listed as a Greengrocer.  I have not had any joy in locating an online directory later than 1850, am I looking in the wrong places or is there not one.

My very tenuous line of thought is this; My ggf was Frederick, his father was Charles. Could the Charles F be Charles Frederick? Secondly, Fredericks youngest son was named Robert. All very tenuous I know, but hey, sometimes these hunches pay of!

I am looking for a later record of this address, or of details of any of the occupants. I would have thought that finding Charles F would be relatively easy, no pun intended, but so far nothing.

As I know little of Dublin, could someone tell me what parish Stephens Green is in and the nearest churches to this address, maybe if I look through those church records I will find clarification.

Many thanks again for all your wonderful help and advice.

John

[shanew147]

....
As I know little of Dublin, could someone tell me what parish Stephens Green is in and the nearest churches to this address, maybe if I look through those church records I will find clarification.
....

Stephen's Green is split between several civil parishes - the greengrocer you mentioned is at 7 Stephen's Green north, and in the section which runs between the top of Grafton St. and Dawson Street, and in the civil parish of St. Anne's.

Has a denomination been established for your Smyth family ?

The Church of Ireland parish is also St. Anne's, and the church is on Dawson St. The RC parish for the area at that time was likely St. Nicholas (Francis St.) or St. Andrew's (Westland Row).

There's a baptism on the IrishGenealogy website for a Spencer Smyth in 1873 with that family address. Father's name is Edward Weber Smyth, merchant.  see : Smyth baptism

The 1857 directory shows the same Smyth business at 7 St. Stephen's Green North - with Robert & sons, and Charles F. as grocers & wine merchants.


Shane

[hasta]

This record from 1860-61 has a Charles Wellesley Dillon of 6 Stephens Green which interestingly is described as an 'EXHIBITION & PHOTOGRAPH GALLERY'
http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/997#tab_works (quarter way down the page)

Building:    CO. DUBLIN, DUBLIN, ST STEPHEN'S GREEN, NO. 006 (EXHIBITION & PHOTOGRAPH GALLERY)
Date:    1860-61
Nature:    Alterations, for Charles Wellesley Dillon.

On the PayPerView website www.findmypast.ie there is a record linking this Charles Wellesley Dillon of 6 Stephens Green and the Charles F. Smyth of 7 Stephens Green that you think might be Fredricks father. You can search the site for free and buy credits to see actual records.