Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup

[Valda]

09 October 05

JAP you must have a great filing / indexing system.

Well, yes I do! It's called TMG - The Master Genealogist. BUT, unfortunately, I haven't entered Louise's people into it '( So I've been reduced to (and still am) two other filing/indexing systems - (a) the one we all have called the human brain, and (b) the one all of us RootsChatters have namely previous posts!! And, as I said earlier, after dredging back through my memory and all the pages of this thread time and time again, I only wished I'd entered the information into TMG! That's why I summarized the pertinent Samuel stuff a few posts back - as an aide-memoire to myself ) 'Married in 1853 calc age 20' I looked at all the Samuels in South and South West Bradford with mother Mary and the one I mentioned was the only one of anywhere near the right age. How did we get to Mary? We arrived at William from the father's name on the quoted marriage cert of Samuel BENN to Elizabeth JOWETT in 1853. Arriving at Mary is a different matter. I think that this was from a recently quoted post from a mailing list of ages ago, and from the baptisms a couple of posts back
Of course a copy of Yorkshire 1851 on CD would be the best way to go about this exercise or wait until Ancestry finally get 1851 on their site. Either way expensive
Well, Louise has the Bradford 1851 CD and, now that 1851 has come online on Ancestry, Valda has checked it out (see a post or two above) but no luck so far it seems ... Perhaps we have to consider various other possibilities - Samuel was mistrancribed (certainly we have seen BENN mistranscribed previously) Samuel was missed by the census (deliberately on his part or otherwise) Samuel was somewhere we would not have expected him to be and with his birthplace not what we would have expected or his age was wildly astray or his name wasn't really Samuel or wasn't really BENN etc, etc.1841 is still a possibility??Samuel was RELATIVELY straightforward from 1853-1871 but led us a merry dance thereafter. I'd hoped he'd be pretty straightforward before 1853 but it seems I was kidding myself

Cheers,
JAP
   

      
09 October 05

The widow Mary Benn is who I followed through the 1861 and 1871 censuses and who I'm fairly sure (she was with her son James who I checked against his IGI baptism) is the widow of Joseph Benn. The 1851 census tends to confirm I had the right baptism for James and the right father - a check on a more unusually named sibling from the 1851 census gives you From the IGI Rose Benn Birth 25 MAY 1831 Bradford, Yorkshire Father Joseph Benn Mother Mary   

At this point we are running with the possibility of this marriage for Samuel's parents WILLIAM BENN MARY FOSTER Marriage 11 AUG 1816 Bradford, Yorkshire The first child Elizabeth's non-conformist baptism in 1818 (there could be no non-conformist marriages pre 1837 - all marriages taking place in Anglican churches or at least with Anglican rites, except Quakers, Foreign churches and illegal Catholic ceremonies) and then nothing on the IGI and therefore one presumes the other information about the remaining children plus the older Elizabeth came from the 1841 census - hence the gap between Elizabeth and the younger children (with any other children between either dead or left home and no information on them).The 1851 census would seem to show both William and Mary have died between censuses, unless Mary had remarried. There is a possibility that Margaret Benn may have married Isaac Kellett in 1849. She and her husband are in Horton with their young son on the 1851 census. Margaret born Horton circa 1832.

The whole family is missing from the 1861 and 1871 censuses. This would just leave (of the known children) Samuel and Joshua (who may have died young) missing from the 1851 census. Samuel may have had a brief excursion into the army as that's pretty common and could be abroad, or he could have just avoided getting enumerated - also a common young singleton male activity. I can't see a mistranscription for him (unless it really is a totally off the wall one).
 I've checked all Sam* born Yorkshire within 5 years of his proposed birthdate in the whole country with a surname something like Benn (there are over 2,000 Samuels of any surname, in Yorkshire alone within a five year radius of a birth year circa 1830, going up to over 4,500 if you do the search for 5 years either side of 1835 on born Yorkshire.At this point I can't see any reason for speculating about Samuel's parentage and siblings further and making it more complicated than it necessarily need be. Bob Chapple should have the family on the 1841 census, as well as further parish records on them - if only burials. As a one namer myself I can supply this basic level of information as 'standard'.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

09 October 05

You see what happens, you go away for the weekend and another page gets filled in. So now I don’t need to check the 1851 census again, as I had sat down to do, because it is online and Valda has done it, thanks, that is great! Sorry it didn’t help though. I notice in a late post that we were wondering where Samuel and Joshua might have been in 1851. Where they the Samuel and Joshua in Huddersfield with the Sugdens that I found last week? A very dear friend of mine from Cleckheaton - next to all the places we are talking about - is called Lightowler. A small world.JAP - that was a great summary and I could not find fault with a word of it. In fact, if truth be told, I was almost tearful to think about how much you are all investing in this puzzle. That is probably only something you can experience if you have been the beneficiary of such help and hard work from others. I do hope you and Valda and Dave and everyone else who has helped, do put up their own puzzles so that I too can find a way of helping in return. I know I read a post earlier that gave me my next instructions, but cannot see it now, please can you (JAP? Valda?) PM me with them. I have emailed Bob Chapple, so far to no avail, will try again.

Best wishes
Louise
      

   
09 October 05

Here is some random information that I looked up as part of my five pounds worth on the site I named before and have now forgotten, but for which I recognised copyright. I hope that if you find any of the information potentially useful, you will tell me which bits to pay more to get, if anyBurials1. Name Samuel? BENN Date 7 Dec 1834 Aged 1 Place Leeds Description Hunslet St Mary Denomination Anglican County code WRY2. Name Samuel BENN Date 19 May 1814 Aged 5w Place Leeds Description St Peter Denomination Anglican County code WRY Kirklees 1851

Address Leeds Road Name Ann Benn Relationship to Head Dau Marital Status - Age 7 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Huddersfield Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 52. Address Leeds Road Name Lucy Benn Relationship to Head Dau Marital Status - Age 1 Occupation - Birthplace Huddersfield Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 53. Address Leeds Road Name Hannah Benn Relationship to Head Wife Marital Status M Age 27 Occupation - Birthplace Longwood Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 54. Address Leeds Road Name Joshua Benn Relationship to Head Head Marital Status M Age 31 Occupation Cart Driver Birthplace Elland Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 55. Address Leeds Road Name John R. Benn Relationship to Head Son Marital Status - Age 4 Occupation - Birthplace Huddersfield Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 5 Halifax

1851 census for Joshua Benn have not accessed details of each family as money ran out, this is only incidences of a Joshua in the index.1. Township Northowram Address Ellen Royd, Range Bank Name Benn Joshua Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 70 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Halifax County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1h Schedule 31 Folio 1512. Township Southowram Address Siddal Hall Name Benn Joshua Status Wr Rel Head gender Male Age 49 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Southowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 7 Schedule 12 Folio 5903. Township Elland cum Greetland Address Waterloo Name Benn Joshua Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 46 Occupation Coal miner Place of Birth Thornton County Yks deaf – Piece 2299 ED 1e Schedule 7 Folio 107 Halifax

 1851 census for William Benn Township Northowram Address Hitchen Lane Name Benn William Status Wr Rel  Lodg gender Male Age 38 Occupation Worsted weaver (by hand) Place of Birth Shelf County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 12 Folio 3862. Township Northowram Address Causeway end Name Benn William Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 38 Occupation Worsted weaver (by hand) Place of Birth Clayton County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 23 Folio 3873. Township Northowram Address Causeway end Name Benn William Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 14 Occupation Worsted spinner (at mill) Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 26 Folio 3874. Township Ovenden Address Bradshaw Lane Name Benn William Status U Rel Bro-in-L gender Male Age 25 Occupation Wool Comber Place of Birth Ovenden County Yks deaf – Piece 2301 ED 21 Schedule 23 Folio 3775. Township Southowram Address Swan Banks Name Benn William Status – Rel Son gender Male Age 14 Occupation Worsted Power Loom Weaver Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2 Schedule 128 Folio 463

[Valda]

09 October 05

Marriages in Halifax St Johns of women called Elizabeth Jowett On 11/05/1806 Groom James SPEAK Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 208 Groom Abode Ovenden Bride Abode Northowram.
On 11/10/1806 Groom John FIRTH Occupation Mason of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status W of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 378. Groom Abode Ovenden Bride Abode Ovenden3.
On 15/08/1807 Groom William SIMPSON Occupation Mason of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 736. Groom Abode Halifax Bride Abode Halifax4.
On 11/11/1821 Groom Matthew SHEARD Occupation Comber of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 115. Groom Abode Ovenden Bride Abode Ovenden.
On 29/07/1822 Groom Edward HOLDSWORTH Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 520. Groom Abode Northowram Bride Abode Northowram.
On 17/11/1828 Groom James HESSLEDEN Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 610. Groom Abode Northowram Bride Abode Northowram.
On 23/03/1818 Groom Thomas Carleton Occupation Dyer of OTP Bride Elizabeth Jowett Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 877. Groom Abode Halifax Bride Abode Southowram.
On 19/03/1837 Groom Samuel WILDE Occupation Comber of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 671. Groom Abode Sowerby Bride Abode Sowerby.
On 12/12/1835 Groom Jonas SUNDERLAND Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 633. Groom Abode Warley Bride Abode Warley

Entries in 1851 for George Jowett in Halifax census (ran out of money at this point) Township Halifax Address No 8 Square Road Name Jowett George Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 17 Occupation Tailor Place of Birth Halifax County Yks deaf – Piece 2298 ED 1bb Schedule 40 Folio 6212. Township Halifax Address 8 Lower Crib Lane Name Jowett George Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 11 Occupation Scholar Place of Birth Greetland County Yks deaf – Piece 2298 ED 1o Schedule 26 Folio 3303. Township Northowram Address Lidgett Name Jowett George Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 24 Occupation Stuff Dresser Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1ab Schedule 15 Folio 4654. Township Northowram Address 42 Doby Hall Name Jowett George Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 18 Occupation Jobber at Factory Place of Birth Sowerby County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1f Schedule 121 Folio 1135. Township Northowram Address 42 Doby Hall Name Jowett George Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 53 Occupation Wool Comber Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1f Schedule 121 Folio 1136. Township Ovenden Address Moorside Name Jowett George Status – Rel Son gender Male Age 2 Occupation – Place of Birth Ashton under Lyne County Lan deaf – Piece 2301 ED 11 Schedule 118 Folio 2057. Township Southowram Address Wakefield Bank Name Jowett George Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 40 Occupation Wool Comber Place of Birth Southowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 4 Schedule 125 Folio 531- with same concerns about the unlikely number of deaf people Let me know which to expand upon

Louise

[Valda]

09 October 05

"I notice in a late post that we were wondering where Samuel and Joshua might have been in 1851. Were they the Samuel and Joshua in Huddersfield with the Sugdens that I found last week?"
Now that's an interesting remark from Louise. Did I lose this information somewhere in amongst all the rest? I can't find a Samuel or a Joshua in Huddersfield on the 1851 census that looks hopeful, however there are 60 Sugdens in Huddersfield, so I could do with having the search narrowed down a bit. Can you please send me the exact reference so I can check the page itself. Which email are you using for Bob Chapple, Louise? Is it the one you can find here on the Guild of One Name Studies' website?

http//www.Blimey/cgibin/surname.cgi?find=benn&ampGo=Search

Strange that someone is doing a one name study of Benn and no-one is registered for Lightowler. If you go to the National Statistics database at

http//www.taliesin-arlein.net/names/search.php

you can check how rare having a friend with the surname Lightowler is, in comparison to knowing a Benn. Excluding people with surnames under 5 in total, Lightowler is the 6,667 most common surname in the country - so it’s reasonably rare. The 1851 census had 382 Lightowlers, 366 of whom were in Yorkshire which probably accounts for why I've never met one - it is rare and locative. Congratulations on passing the magic 1,000 hits!!!

Regards
Valda
         
         
10 October 05

The widow Mary Benn is who I followed through the 1861 and 1871 censuses and who I'm fairly sure (she was with her son James who I checked against his IGI baptism) is the widow of Joseph Benn. ...
Hi Valda, Are you saying that widow Mary BENN in the George PETTY household in the 1881 census is not Mary, the widow of Benjamin BENN of Buttershaw? I was pretty confident that she was as(a) George's wife is Esther, age 43, born Shelf this is exactly the right age and birthplace for Benjamin and Mary's daughter Esther (she was 13 in 1851, 23 in 1861).(b) George's mother-in-law Mary (78, born Shelf) is exactly the right age and birthplace for Benjamin's widow (she was 48 in 1851, 58 in 1861).(c) We know that Mary was a widow by 1881 (Benjamin of Buttershaw having died in 1864) and we know she was still alive in 1881 (she died in 1894)This is not important but just for completeness ...

Cheers,
JAPPS

Valda, I've just realized that you were no doubt referring to the widow Mary (53 in 1851, and the widow of Joseph) posted by Dave - not the widow Mary (78 in 1881, and the widow of Benjamin) I posted. Duh
         


10 October 05

This is the census I found with a Joshua Benn and a Samuel Benn staying with the Sugdens. It is 1841 though I see, not 1851 so might not be relevant, an amazing coincidence though if it is not. Then I looked at Kirklees in 1841 and found this family which I am sure is relevant, but cannot just work it all out at the moment. Kirklees is the borough for the area around Huddersfield which is no real distance away. Kirklees 1841 census1. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Mary Jane Sugden Age 4 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 482. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Elizabeth Sugden Age 43 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 483. Address Brick Bank Head Y Name Edwin Sugden Age 25 Occupation Blacksmith Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 484. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Joshua Benn Age 22 Occupation Cropper Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 485. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Samuel Benn Age 7 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 48

I emailed Bob on the email from the one name link yes, and the email was not returned undelivered, so ought to have arrived. Of course he could be on holiday or anything. I am a bit concerned though as I cannot find sight of him on message boards for three years. I will let you know as soon as I have anything - don’t forget to let me know which certificates I now need to buy

Regards
Louise

[Valda]

10 October 05

By a twist of fate my birth father never knew of my existence. I was adopted within a few weeks of my birth and my search for my real parents has led me to this interest in family history. My birth fathers name - LIGHTOWLER. Incidentally the name is interpreted from the earlier LIGHTOLRES as meaning Light Alders. A place close to the family seat on Blackstone Edge has the name Light Hazels. A Llightowlers was the first mate on the Titanic, he survived to give evidence and in retirement took his yacht 'Sundowner' to Dunkirk to rescue soldiers from the beaches. Miriam Lightowlers (My ggGran) was the first Lady Mayor of Halifax and had a fire engine, a clock and a street named after her. It makes a full circle of my fan chart and the occupations look much better than weavers and woolsorters. I used the Bob Chapple email address from the Guild of One Name Studies and have had no reply but having said that I have not had an undelivered note either, perhaps he is on holiday.

Dave
PS Louise the 1841 census above doesn't look like 1841...Ages not rounded and too much info ?
         
         

14 October 05

I can't find Samuel either as Samuel or Benjamin and I can't see William or Mary. I've found Elizabeth who has married her husband and is giving her birthplace as Horton (perhaps her late marriage indicates the death of the last parent) and Zillah who also says born Horton. I can't find Mary as a Hartley or Margaret or Joshua who I presume died young, or in the case of Margaret married somebody.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

Valda, I think JAP refers on the next page (I am still reading this one) that you have checked the 1851 census which by sod's law has now come online a week or two after I bought it on cd!! Is that what this message refers to? I can only assume you told her that in a private message because it does not appear in this thread. I don’t understand the bit about Elizabeth having married her husband - are you saying she is on the 1851 census but he is not? Are we talking about Eliz Jowett here, or another Elizabeth. Sorry to be so thick.

I have fetched out the birth certificate for Samuel Benn that I have had for twenty years. I don’t have it in my hand at the moment but can tell you it was 1837 from memory, his father William Benn, his mother Martha nee Sutcliffe, born Stainland which is the other side of Halifax and probably a bit far away. I have had a partial refund from the GRO because the 1854 wedding certificate I ordered did not show the bride as being named Elizabeth. We know that now anyway, as the marriage was in 1853 according to Brenda who has the certificate. I feel that as Bob has not replied to our emails and for all we know, never will, we will have to progress without him for the time being. What proof do we have that Samuel, son of William and husband of Elizabeth had a mother called Mary, other than the fact researchers found the Thornton baptisms? Might this be yet another Samuel and not mine - given Valda's oft repeated point about how you could not walk round some parts of the area without falling over a Samuel Benn.

Do we know who made the LDS submissions about the baptism of children to William and Mary? I wonder where they got their information from. Elizabeth, Margaret, Samuel and John are the children named on the IGI but we also have a Zillah, Mary and Joshua from Valerie J - although she did not have a John recorded. Valerie, where did you get the names from? From Bob? Another quote I cannot let go without chuckling at comes from JAP concerning the whereabouts of Samuel on the 1851 census. "Perhaps Samuel was somewhere we would not have expected him to be and with his birthplace not what we would have expected or his age was wildly astray or his name wasn't really Samuel or wasn't really BENN etc, etc. Indeedy! I can see the 1841 census is critical and although Valda thinks Bob must have a copy of it in order to have come up with the names of William and Mary's children, he isn't here to tell us about it, so I need to find it myself. I will redouble my efforts to find where I can access Halifax 1841 census, the look-up request hasn't generated any interest so I may have to go to Halifax sometime and look at it myself in the flesh so to speak.

Dave re the entry you queried in the prior post to this, the 1841 census for Kirklees, I will have to pay another £5 to check that I have not made a mistake, and whilst I don’t mind doing that, I would prefer to have some more research to look up, to make it worth my while. Does anyone need anything looking up to do with their own family that might be found in a database on

www.familyhistoryonline.net?

Dave, as a Lightowler by birth, I wonder if you are related to my friend in Cleckheaton. I don’t know if she has done any work on her family tree. I must ask her and also let her know about the Titanic, very interesting. I hope Lewis emails me, he might have more information that could help. He might have a copy of the 1841 census that Bob is not around to let us see. Valerie, please will you give him my email address so that we can correspond.
Thanks again everyone

Love Louise

[Valda]

15 October 05

I can't find Samuel either as Samuel or Benjamin and I can't see William or Mary. I've found Elizabeth who has married her husband and is giving her birthplace as Horton (perhaps her late marriage indicates the death of the last parent) and Zillah who also says born Horton. I can't find Mary as a Hartley or Margaret or Joshua who I presume died young, or in the case of Margaret married somebody.

Regards
Valda



Valda, I think JAP refers on the next page (I am still reading this one) that you have checked the 1851 census which by sod's law has now come online a week or two after I bought it on cd!! Is that what this message refers to? I can only assume you told her that in a private message because it does not appear in this thread.




Hello Louise, No, no private messages I deduced it from Valda's post on page 8 (quoted in part above). I don’t understand the bit about Elizabeth having married her husband - are you saying she is on the 1851 census but he is not? Are we talking about Eliz Jowett here, or another Elizabeth. Sorry to be so thick. There are so many similar names that it is very easy to become confused (as I did with comments about a widow Mary). I take it that, in the quote above, Valda is referring to Elizabeth BENN, daughter of William BENN, who - we have been told - was born in 1818 and married a James ISHERWOOD. It might help to identify them as e.g. Joshua (William) cf Joshua (Samuel), etc? Valerie (1999 Rootsweb message quoted by Valda on page 7) gave the family as William BENN and Mary (maiden name not known)*BENN Elizabeth (William) b 1818 m James ISHERWOOD Valda has given a FreeBMD reference for the marriage of Elizabeth BENN and James ISHERWOOD in Mar qtr 1851 Bradford*BENN Zillah (William) b 1820 m Charles WORSNOP Valda has given a FreeBMD reference for the marriage of Zilla (sic) BENN and Charles WORSNOP in Sep qtr 1841 Bradford. She also indicated that Charles and Zillah (with Zillah's birthplace as Chatt Hill - which is near Thornton) were in Manningham in 1861, and that by 1871 Charles had remarried.*BENN Mary (William) b 1825 m John HARTLEY*BENN Margaret (William) b 1832 BENN Samuel (William) b 1833 m Elizabeth JOWETT b 1832 Probably/possibly 'your' Samuel. Samuel is Valerie's ancestor (my understanding is that she is descended from Samuel's daughter Ann's son, William ORMONDROYD) There's also the email you quoted - page 8 - from Brenda (my understanding is that her husband is descended from Samuel's daughter Ruth who married Adam SUGDEN).
 
Brenda gave details of the marriage certificate of Samuel (William) BENN and Elizabeth (George) JOWETT, both resident in Horton, on 23 August 1853 in the Parish Church, Bradford*BENN Joshua (William) b 1837My understanding is that Valda is saying that the only members of the above family she could find in the 1851 census were Elizabeth (William) BENN, birthplace given as Horton, who was by then married to ISHERWOOD and Zillah (William) BENN, birthplace given as Horton, who was presumably with her WORSNOP husband. However Valda did find the George JOWETT family in 1851 in Horton and listed them - including what must be the Elizabeth (daughter of George) JOWETT who married Samuel (son of William) BENN in Aug 1853 (according to the marriage cert quoted by Brenda).What we don't know is the primary source of the information about the name of William BENN's wife, and about the names and birthdates of their children.

To add to the confusion, there are entries for children of a William BENN and a Mary in the IGI - and these might or might not be the same family (most are LDS submissions, and the match is not the best). There's Elizabeth b and bap 1818 Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton by Bradford (extracted entry) Margaret b 1830 Great Horton Samuel b 1832 Great Horton (LDS) John b 1835 Great Horton (LDS). We don't know who made the LDS submissions. So, yes, it does seem that there are a couple of critical areas at the present stage - finding the William BENN family in the 1841 census, and the primary source (which might well be the 1841 census?) of the information about William BENN, wife Mary, and their children. Let's hope that all or any of Brenda, Lewis and Valerie can provide more information about this.

Regards,
JAPPS

I suspect that the Kirklees extract in your post on page 7 is1841. Compare it with the amount of information in the 1851 extracts in that post (especially that the 1851 extracts include relationships and details of birthplace). As 1841 was the first 'normal' census, naughty enumerators did not always read their instructions carefully - and thus many of them (earning the undying gratitude of genealogists) entered precise, rather than rounded, ages. Also, the reference number (1275/3) seems to be the 1841 ref no – refer

http//www.hdfhs.org.uk/hfldf.htm

Perhaps having BENNs in a SUGDEN household just reflects how common the name BENN was! Yes, Samuel aged 7 would fit for Samuel (William) said to have been born in 1833, but Joshua aged 22 is no match for Joshua (William) said to have been born in 1837. I'd be waiting for more 1841 census information before spending more money on this extract.

[Valda]

15 October 05
 
One of my messages begins rather abruptedly and if you look at the bottom you will see that Rootschat edited out the beginning part of the email. Suffice to say JAP's deduction is correct on my census source. Elizabeth a potential sibling of Samuel's was married and living with her husband on the 1851 census - her age for the 1818 circa birth year/baptism is consistent. FreeBMD gives the marriage reference in the March quarter of 1851. Zillah was also with her husband - again a consistent age from the information on her circa birth year which I presume comes from the 1841 census. I am also presuming the information from the 1853 Samuel marriage as given is correct (however you need to see a copy of the certificate Louise to confirm it in your own mind). The details fit the known Jowett information, including the father's occupation on the 1851 census. He had moved into farming by 1861.The marriage confirms Samuel's father was called William and eliminates other Samuels because they are not married to an Elizabeth. The information that confirms the family as a unit I feel can only be taken from the 1841 census as it would seem to me that both parents were dead by 1851 (unless the mother had remarried but I would think because of her age that is remote chance - or unless two different 1851 census indexes are both hiding the family). Samuel is unfound on the 1851 census but unless he was living with a sibling finding him would not help a great deal since he would just be a singleton male. Finding any other Samuels of the same age living with fathers not called William gives further confirmation they are eliminated. Your Samuel was not with either of his presumed sisters Elizabeth or Zillah (or even Margaret Kellett who may or may not be a sister).If you want to prove in the interim that either of these two women (Elizabeth and Zillah) had a father called William then you have their marriage references. Zillah is the more useful since her marriage was earlier. She might give an indication of where the family was in 1841 as she married in the September quarter of that year. With her marriage you might be able to put up a request on Rootschat for a look up in the 1841 census. Having said all this 'sod's law' will dictate that a reply will then immediately come through from Bob Chapple re the 1841 census and in the worst case scenario Zillah's marriage certificate doesn't give a father's name of William (in which case I think we can all throw in the towel).I have not found the marriage for the third sister Mary to John Hartley, but it could be around the sametime Samuel married. The other siblings I could find no record of which might mean they died or in the case of Margaret married (still the possibility of the Isaac Kellett marriage for her - Bradford 1849). In this email of 1999 Valerie lists this marriage as correct for Margaret.

http//genforum.genealogy.com/benn/messages/34.html

The 1851 census had Margaret Kellett as birthplace Horton circa 1832 - so another Horton (two siblings birth circa 1818 and 1832 give Horton as a birthplace, 1 sibling gives Chatt Hill circa 1825 on the 1851 census)By other known siblings, excluding Margaret, I just mean the young Joshua (I think the LDS submission by a church member of the son John may turn out to be a confusion for Joshua). Though sadly I think it unlikely, there is just a slim chance that Joshua was born late enough to have his birth registered. Since no Benn in this line really makes it that easy I can't think Samuel's potential younger brother Joshua will prove an exception to the rule. Unless they all died young there are potential gaps between the possible birth years of the possible Samuel siblings.1821-1824 1826-1831 1834-1836 though here Joshua on the end may just be a late child who occurs after the regular potential pattern of the others. If you do got to a West Yorkshire record office/local studies library Louise you might check what non-conformist records there are for this area and whether all of them are on the IGI. In the end trawling the Bradford parish registers baptism, marriage and burials for all these Benns (while trying to ignore all the other Benns - who may later turn out to be related) may be worth your while.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

15 October 05

One of my messages begins rather abruptedly and if you look at the bottom you will see that Rootschat edited out the beginning part of the email. Yes, I did notice that there had been an edit (though there was no indication what it was) - and wondered but thought it prudent not to ask! If you do got to a West Yorkshire record office/local studies library Louise you might check what non-conformist records there are for this area and whether all of them are on the IGI. In the end trawling the Bradford parish registers baptism, marriage and burials for all these Benns (while trying to ignore all the other Benns - who may later turn out to be related) may be worth your while. ... Yes, I had a bit of a look at this. I was interested to see that there are fairly extensive records for Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton by Bradford (where the extracted entry for Elizabeth 1818, parents William and Mary comes from) but I trawled through the batches and, while there are plenty of BENNs (not to mention JOWETTs and SUGDENs) around, Elizabeth is the only one there with pa William. Of course, another possibility in church records relates to burial records as Valda mentions - and these (including those for Kipping of course) are not in the IGI. And we have to remember that 'our' Samuel (sorry Louise and others, but after all this I do feel some sort of proprietary interest!) is supposed to have been born in Shelf (I think!) so who knows where he might (or might not) have been baptized! I'd really like to see what (if anything) more Brenda, Lewis and Valerie might have - especially 1841 census records.

Cheers,
JAP
   

      
Sunday 16 October 05

Just a little snippet that could help Potential churches in Shelf early 1800's Primitive Methodist Chapel LM (Low Moor ?) Wesleyan ChapelSt Michael and all the Angels (Per. Curars) -not sure what that means above taken from the old-maps.co.uk site The centenary book of the Shelf Bethel Chapel 1853-1953 (see Google) gives some of the interesting goings on in Shelf during that time. Louise I'm going to take you up on your offer. I'm looking for Fanny Greenwood Bland b. Bradford 1847 supposed to be living in Mill Hey Haworth 1851 with John age c. 26 b. Haworth Susan (Susey or Susannah) age 23 b. Bradford - should be b. Elland Hariett age 2 b. Bradford ?Mary Ann age 1 b. Bradford ? - should be 3 months b. Haworth On the Haworth transcription that I have seen she is missing. I could not find her on Bradford 1851 perhaps she is on Keighley or Halifax. The family had lived in Bingley at one time and were living in Midgley, Luddenden in 1861.There are various combinations of the name but all the early census returns have listed the family as Greenwood. I have not searched for combinations of the forename Fanny perhaps it has been transcribed as Nanny or Franny who knows?

Thanks
Dave

PS I visited the Bethel Chapel on the strength of one of these postings ... Grace and Isaac Benn.... Burials Shelf. I found the headstone and confirmed that they are my ancestors from the dates. Also Bob Chapple has replied to my email and I have sent some of my Benn info to him.


17 October 05

Dave - good news about the graves, well doneI will have a look for your people this week Did Bob say if he had received my email or whether he was readying himself to contact us with some information?

Louise