Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup

[Valda]

25 August 05

Hi again, When I left the computer yesterday, I had trawled through all the Samuels and had left myself a note for today - to persevere with trying to find Samuel (#5 to use Valda's numbering) in 1871 as he seemed a likely one but ... I was hoping that, with a refreshed mind, I might be able to find some positive information today but it seems not. Incidentally, I wondered about the Stuff Singer - seems it wasn't one who sings but one who singes! As far as I can make out, loose nap was removed from cloth by singeing it ...Just to tie up an end, the Samuel (#2) married to Hagar is transcribed as BERON in 1871.From Genuki I learn that North Bierley is in the parish of Bradford. And both Northowram and Shelf are in the parish of Halifax. However Shelf is very close to the boundary between the parish of Bradford and the parish of Halifax. This could well explain why Benjamin, for instance, gives his birthplace as Shelf though the baptism which we think might be the same person is recorded in the IGI as Bradford.As well as the Samuel BENN bap 1835 Bradford, with parents Abraham and Ruth (and, just to make him perhaps less likely, there's an LDS submission showing his birthas 1831), there's another Bradford Samuel in the IGI round the same time. This is Samuel BENN bap 1 Jun 1836 in Bradford to Benjamin BENN and Mary. And a Benjamin BENN (b ca 1797 in Shelf) and a Mary are in the 1861 census in North Bierley with their family (no Samuel with them).FreeBMD has a Samuel BENN b Bradford in the Mar qtr 1840 - LDS submitters seem to think this is the Samuel who married Maria (that would be the plumber) and they have him dying in 1902. FreeBMD also has a Samuel BENN b Halifax in the Mar qtr 1838. FreeBMD of course is incomplete so perhaps there are more Samuel BENNs around in the complete index - both births and deaths. Continued in my next.

JAP



25 August 05

(Continuing)It does seem that trying to tie the Samuel BENN (BEEN) who is with Eliza VIPOND in 1881 either forwards or backwards with confidence is not possible at this stage. The only positive sighting of Samuel is in 1881 in Eccleshill (part of Bradford) aged 41, Married, a Weaving Overlocker (out of employ), born Shelf. And how much reliance can be placed on anything in that record given that his name is clearly written as BEEN, he is described as Master(!) rather than Head, Eliza is described as his wife despite having a different surname (VIPOND), and three children with the surname VIPOND are described as Samuel's sons/daughters. So can any reliance be placed on his age or birthplace? On the information currently to hand, going backwards there seem to be two serious candidates for this Samuel but both are older - Samuel BENN the miner (coal in 1861, stone in 1871 wife a widow in 1881) and Samuel BENN the worsted weaver (found in 1861 but not in 1871).Perhaps the ages are not important as they seem to be very flexible with Sharp's father, Samuel BENN the miner, aging only 4 years between 1861 and 1871 while his mother aged 13 years (31 and 22 in 1861 both 35 in 1871) incidentally Sharp's death is on FreeBMD - Mar qtr 1873, Halifax, aged 14. And if the age of Samuel the miner in 1861 is correct (31) then the death of Samuel BENN, age 51, Mar qtr 1880, Halifax could well be him especially noting that wife Ruth is recorded as a widow in 1881. And remember that this family was in Northowram in both 1861 and 1871 - and Northowram was in Halifax. Perhaps Samuel the miner is not really a candidate? What about Samuel the worsted weaver? Well, he has one major drawback - he can't be found in 1871.Going forward, the Samuel who is a lodger in 1891 is OK for age (50) and occupation vis-à-vis the Samuel who was with Eliza VIPOND in 1881 - but his birthplace has changed to North Bierley which seems strange. And of course the 1893 death of a Samuel in Bradford, Sep qtr 1891, age 53 could well be him. John William/Wilson VIPOND/BENN has completely defeated me! Yes, an 1851 lookup request for Samuel BENN in the West Riding would be great - though it may not help with the main problem of trying to tie the 1881 Samuel back into 1871 and 1861

JAP

[Valda]

25 August 05

No JAP I think you are right I don't think an 1851 census look up will help with that but it just helps connect that Samuel's family together and perhaps helps with the Benjamin and Mary baptism of the other Samuel in Bradford in 1836 that you have found. My only other thought is to get the death certificate of this second Samuel candidate on the chance whoever registers his death ties him in with Samuel pre 1871 or more unlikely Eliza. With the absence of a marriage to Eliza I think that all that can be done (unless she took a maintenance case against him in the quarter sessions and that would quite a trawl looking for that) is to eliminate any other possible suspect. If Samuel's wife had just died by the time of the 1871 census and his children were with relatives, then he becomes one of those lone men whose main occupation on censuses is to avoid being enumerated! Either that or he needs a death registration by 1871 (unless he just disappears, and or reappears as Samuel Been sic in 1881)? If the death is his in 1893 and ties him to the earlier Samuel, that will surmount the issue of the missing 1871 census return. It still doesn't prove it was him, but in the absence of any other possible candidate and his presence in the vicinity in 1891 it helps make him a very strong favourite. Unless any family member left a will which doesn't seem particularly likely but you never know, the unlikeliest people do sometimes leave wills, I'm not sure the evidence will ever be sufficient to make it 100%.As usual a very good eye for detail JAP

Regards
Valda


25 August 05

I have removed the link because it made the page too wide, being a long link. Sorry! This is a test link to see if I can get a map to come up that shows you, for interest, where Shelf, Northowram, Bierley and Bradford are. I was going to phone Calderdale FHS reading room this morning (they are open on Thursday mornings by happy chance) to confirm that Shelf was in the parish of Halifax, but JAP seems confident in any case. It is very close to the border with the now city of Bradford. I was given to understand some years ago from a Bradford FHS member that back in the 1850s if you said you were from "Bradford" you meant a very particular central part, again a parish of its own, you didn’t mean one of the villages on the outskirts. Of course it has all grown and expanded and now Bradford is a city incorporating the villages into a larger mass. Northowram would be fine as an alternative to Shelf, they are both in Halifax Parish as was and in Calderdale council area. North Bierley is a few miles away to the north-east and is now part of Bradford in terms of local government. I don’t know where it would have been then, I think they would have been in the Bradford registration district though, not the Halifax one. I will ask for the 1851 look up on the board as you suggest. I should remind you perhaps that the whole of this area was knee deep in chapel folk rather than CofE and I suspect that any baptising would have been done in chapel. I don’t think this is well covered on the IGI. I have always suspected that Samuel wasn't going to be found, but I do like your suggestion of ruling out the ones that cannot be him to see who we are left with. Let's see what the board throws up - I cannot work through your census theories just now, but will put them into a spreadsheet tonight and see how they work out. Thanks very much - you two could set up in business together if you had a mind! Best wishes as always Louise
PS also adding another thought I had concerning the 1891 census for Lane Bottom showing a 50 year old Samuel Benn from North Bierley - he was a lodger so may not have been the one that gave the information to the enumerator.


25 August 05

Hello Louise,
There are instructions somewhere for inserting a long link. I'll try to explain - but will use { } when what you really have to use are square brackets.{url=longlink} Click Here{/url} Hope that's meaningful. So the result (using square brackets and inserting the actual long url where I've typed 'longlink') would then be something like the following. To see a Map (from Multimap) which shows Shelf, Northowram, Bierley and Bradford
Click Here

(http//www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&ampX=420000.717033319&ampY=430000.379314416&ampwidth=500&ampheight=300&ampgride=&ampgridn=&ampsrec=0&ampcoordsys=gb&ampdb=freegaz&ampaddr1=&ampaddr2=&ampaddr3=&amppc=&ampadvanced=&amplocal=&amplocalinfosel=&ampkw=&ampinmap=&amptable=&ampovtype=&ampzm=0&ampscale=100000&ampleft.x=6&ampleft.y=93)

Good thought about Samuel being a Lodger so details possibly not reliable. It will be great to see whether the 1893 death certificate gives any clues - fingers crossed.

JAP

[Valda]

25 August 05

JAP Thanks for showing me how to do a long link, I note that your example is actually the one I wanted, of the map to the area, it might be worth making that more clear, perhaps you could edit your post to say you have done it for me? That's really helpful. I have just found what looks like Eliza's birth on freebmd. Lister Eliza  Bradford Y. 9b 92 1856I will order that today to go with Kezia's that I ordered yesterday and will also order Samuel's death certificate today. - I might have to take out shares in the GRO.

Best wishes
Louise


25 August 05

Dear Both I want you to think over the next week or so if there is anything I can do to help you with your own researches. Perhaps there is something I can do, or arrange to have done, for you here in the UK that you cannot do yourself. Do you want a photograph taken of somewhere for instance? Is there a book in a library somewhere that you would like me to look in? I am pretty resourceful although you wouldn’t know it to see me on here. Even if you think of something that I might not be able to do personally, I might be able to find someone else who can - a friend or relative.
I am going on holiday tomorrow for a week so you will have lots of time to think of something (and lots of time to wait on those old tenterhooks for the next instalments in the Avica and Lister/Benn sagas).You deserve so much

Best wishes
Louise


26 August 05
 
Valda Re 1881 RG12 4457 folio 5677 Kingswood St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire Please can you have another look at this as you have said that Joshua is 18 when by my reckoning he should be 10.Thanks.I have had a look at the information you have found and I put it into a spreadsheet to see how it stacked up. I think we agreed that Samuel Benn no 5 was our best bet so far. He was baptised in 1835 although we don’t know how old he was that day, his siblings were baptised with him so at least some of them had to be older than babies. This means that in 1881 he was actually 46, rather than the 40 he declared, and in 1891 (if the lodger is also our Samuel) he was actually 56 rather than the 50 he declared. On the other hand, he could be the Samuel Benn who died in September that year, in which case he was 53 on his death certificate against 56 compared to his baptismal age which is a bit better. Perhaps the death certificate will help by identifying the place of death and the informant etc. We might be able to prove that the Samuel who died in Sept 1891 is not my ancestor even if we cannot prove he is. (Confused now, JAP repeats "1893" but I am positive I ordered the certificate based on 1891)I am not entirely happy with this Samuel because of these age discrepancies but as you say, the job is right and the place of birth is right which makes him otherwise pretty good. Am I to understand that although delicacy prevents you both from pointing to yet another case of moral turpitude in my family, you and JAP think it looks as though Samuel left home and brother Benjamin stepped into the breach? I can quite see that it would be easy to believe they were one and the same family other than the change of head. I wonder if they were twins, having been baptised together and appearing to be the same age as far as I can tell. Alternatively we have a brand new Samuel enter into the fray, son of Benjamin and Mary. I feel like the broth has been spoiled by too many Benns. I have some papers at home that were trancribed for me about 18 years ago by a Bradford genealogist of some non-conformist baptisms on "the tops" (that is Yorkshire speak for those moorland areas high above sea level where the wind blows and the rain falls almost horizontally and the cobwebs never stand a chance.) Haworth (and Wuthering Heights) are not a million miles away from Shelf to put it into context. I will have a look at the papers when I come back from holiday and see if they mean anything now that we have this new information from the census.

Best wishes
Louise

[Valda]

August 05

Part 1 From the 1881 census in case I confused any of the other children Zilliah 19 William 17 Mary 15 Martha 12 Joshua 10 Ellen 8 Marth A. Sugden 4
On FreeBMD these are the only Samuel Benn deaths I can see within 5 years either side of 1892 Benn, Samuel 1890 June Deaths Salford Benn, Samuel 1891 September Bradford Benn, Samuel 1895 March Deaths Rochdale Benn, Samuel Joseph 1891 September Leeds JAP says in her message
'And of course the 1893 death of a Samuel in Bradford, Sep qtr 1891, age 53 could well be him.'
So I didn't read carefully enough and just latched onto the 1893 bit I only said of Benjamin's two children that they had the same ages as Samuel's which could be a coincidence (you say they were baptised together - the 1871 and 1861 census puts their ages apart - if they were baptised together were they baptised as Samuel and Elizabeth's children?). If they were Samuel's children and not Benjamin's on the 1871 census (and of course both could have had children at the same time and named them the same – it’s just I can't find Benjamin and his family in 1861 and then Samuel's children in 1871) then I'm not really going quite as far as moral turpitude - more man loses wife and is unable to cope with the loss and three children under the age of (since I don't quite know when she died or in what circumstances I can't say under what age). In the interim the women of the family gather round to look after the children while Samuel who may be quite close by fails to get enumerated. Samuel does not remarry immediately (presumably) allowing him to work fulltime and have someone care for his children, and as time passes it is considered a better option for the children to stay in the families they have settled in, particularly the two youngest who may have gone to Benjamin and his new wife as very young children. Or Samuel does take them back after 1871 and they are out on their own by 1881. There are 5 marriages in the Bradford area on FreeBMD in the 1870s of Ruth Benns, 1 for a Margaret, and 1 for Ann. These are the potentials.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

27 August 05

Part 2 BENN, Margaret 1877 December Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire COTTERILL, Joseph 1877 December Marriages Bradford Volume 9b page 124
RG12 4458 folio 8653 Royd St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire
James Stephenson 24 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head Married Wool combing overlooker
Margaret Stephenson 23 Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Stuff weaver
Ruth Stephenson 2 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Zillah Stephenson 8 mths Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter

BENN, Ann 1876 December Marriages Bradford ORMONDROYD, Leonard 1876 December Marriages Bradford
RG12 4434 folio 55 Upper George, North Bierley, Yorkshire
Leonard Ormandroyd 23 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Woolen comber
Ann Ormandroyd 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Samuel Ormandroyd 3 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
Mary Ormandroyd 2 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
James Ormandroyd 1 mth North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son

Ruth of course is more tricky. I think I've got it down to 2 possibilities (another marriage was to a Charles Ormandroyd but I can't find evidence of a Ruth Ormandroyd on the 1881 census or Charles, so there could be three possibilities) BENN, Ruth 1875 March Marriages Bradford Wardman, Randolph 1875 March Marriages Bradford Volume 9b page 55
RG12 4435 folio 58 Slack Side, North Bierley, Yorkshire
 Randolph Wardman 28 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Card cleaner combining (stuff)
Ruth Wardman 28 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted piece prover
Edith Wardman 2 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter

and if you wait long enough, in comes another Sharp - great name, he is the only Sharp Fox in the whole country in 1881 Benn, Ruth 1873 December Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire Fox, Sharp 1873 December Marriages Bradford Volume 9d page 189
RG12 4435 folio 10 Hardy St, North Bierley, Yorkshire
 Sharp Fox 25 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Painter
Ruth Fox 26 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Charles Fox 4 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
Mary Annie Fox 1 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Sadly since I'm obviously going to be doomed as far as Sharps in the family are concerned, he looks the less likely, and for the more ignorant amongst us - what precisely is stuff? The brand new Samuel Benn son of Benjamin and Mary Christening 01 JUN 1836 Bradford, Yorkshire  And not forgetting SAMUEL BENN Birth 24 JAN 1834 Queenshead General Baptist, Clayton By Bradford, Yorkshire, Father ISAAC SHARP Family Mother MARTHA BENN OR FIRTH And these are only the IGI candidates. I just squeezed the second one in because he would obviously be hugely problematically. Neither of these quite make it as candidates because they don’t appear on either the 1861 or 1871 censuses (of course they could be the army) but just as easily they could be dead or emigrated or in the case of the second one could be called by another surname. Working on the principle of possibilities since anything is possible, it could be a Samuel Benn born outside of Yorkshire, since all you have to go on is the 1881 census information, which of course could be incorrect. I think you have to eliminate the candidate(s) you have at present in your hand before you tramp off into the bush to find some more, who even if they do have baptisms not covered by the IGI, still don’t appear on those two earlier censuses at least in Yorkshire.

Regards
Valda


05 September 05

Valda - thanks for the latest posts, I shall have to come back to them later. I have been composing offline and need to upload my contribution first. Update on Joseph Dyson Lister and his complicated family.I have now received the birth certificate for Kezia Lister, daughter of JDL and Eliza Lister, direct ancestor and another daughter of JDL.I can now confirm the following. Kezia Lister born 3rd May 1843. Father Joseph Lister, wool sorter, mother Betty Lister formerly Widdop. Born Daisy Hill Lane, Manningham, Bradford.Eliza Lister born 28th March 1856Father Joseph Lister, wool sorter, mother Betty Lister formerly Widdop. Born Jowett Street, Bradford (making her 16 years 7 months when she married Thomas Vipond). I have had a look on the IGI and can see that Joseph Lister married Betty Widdop in 1833 in Haworth, West Yorkshire. I am trying not to get too excited, obviously I need to do some research but wouldn’t it be lovely if they were married by the Reverend Bronte himself. I have not yet been able to identify a Betty/Elizabeth Widdop born in Scotland as the census suggests. The family name hails from the Haworth area, there is a reservoir named Widdup just by Hebden Bridge so one would have expected her to be local but the census is quite clear on this point. I have made contact with someone who is researching the name and had a birth of another female Widdup in Peebles, Scotland in 1805 so I have asked to see her tree to see if I can make a match with it. Perhaps her parents were from the local area but went to Scotland for some reason, she was born and then they came home?

[Valda]

05 September 05

Samuel Benn I have received the death certificate I ordered, details as follows. Death 29th August 1891, Lane Bottom, Windhill, Idle, Bradford Samuel Benn aged 53, powerloom woollen cloth weaver, cause of death pernicious something beginning with “a”, informant was Hannah Illingworth, occupier of the same address (which I imagine means she was the landlady, we know he was the lodger on the census taken only a few months earlier). She was present at the death evidently. This new piece of information if reliable gives him a year of birth of 1837/1838 which is a few years before the age given on the 1891 census for the same man. I would imagine that where you might be a tad cavalier with the census, if it was your job to report a death you would make sure you had the person’s papers and knew their proper age. I don’t know if this Samuel is my Samuel but I have always thought he could be, given that Eliza’s shop was so near. However, I understand that there is another death of a Samuel Benn in 1902 in Bradford, aged 62 (Vol 9b, p87) which would make him born in 1840 which would be right for my Samuel in 1881 in Eccleshill and right for the death required by 1903 in order to be deceased at his son’s wedding. I have also now acquired the CD for Bradford for 1851 from the Bradford Family History Society. Ironically it arrived just after Ju1 kindly looked some entries for me. I have searched all the districts for any mention at all of any age of Samuel Benn, this is what I found.
1851 Buttershaw, North Bierley Folio 1 24 162 1
Benn Benjamin Head Mar M 54 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf
Benn Mar y Wife Mar F 48 Coal Miner's Wife Yorks., Shelf
Benn Samuel Son Unm M 26 Weaver Yorks., Shelf – born circa 1825
Benn Sarah Daur Unm F 22 Weaver Yorks., Shelf
Benn William Son Unm M 20 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf
Benn Thos. Son Unm M 16 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf
Benn Easter Daur - F 13 Weaver Yorks., Shelf
Benn Harriet Daur - F 10 Scholar Yorks., Shelf

Harbour, North Bierley (I cannot think what the Harbour is)Folio 4 116 242 7
Benn Abraham Head Mar M 43 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Ruth Wife Mar F 42 - Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Samuel Son Unm M 20 Labourer Yorks., Wibsey - born circa 1831
Benn Martha Dau - F 11 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Joshua Son - M 9 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Sarah Dau - F 8 - Yorks., Wibsey
Benn George Son - M 4 - Yorks., Wibsey

173 Dudley Hill, Bowling, Bradford Folio 8 299 38 1
Benn Joseph Head Mar M 30 Coal Miner Yorks., North Bierley
Benn Rachel Wife Mar F 27 Weaver Yorks., Wike
Benn Abigal Daur - F 9 - Yorks., Halifax
Benn Sarah Daur - F 6 - Yorks., Halifax
Benn Benjamin Son - M 4 - Yorks., Bowling
Benn Sam Son - M 6 M - Yorks., Bowling – born circa 1845
Thorp Martha Cousin Unm F 14 Weaver Yorks.,

Shelf Field Head Cottages, Horton Folio 1x 61 168 1 6
Benn Henry Head Mar M 37 Jobber in Mill Yorks., Horton
Sarah Wife Mar F 38 - Yorks., Horton
Benn Hannah Daur - F 15 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Horton
Benn Martha Daur - F 13 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Horton
Benn Samuel Son - M 11 Scholar Yorks., Horton – born circa 1840
Benn John Son - M 5 Scholar Yorks., Horton

Canada, Thornton, Bradford 1c 61 85 1
Benn Samuel  Head Mar M 50 Weaver Worsted Yorks., Thornton – born circa 1801
Benn Hannah Wife Mar F 52 Weaver Worsted Yorks., Thornton
Benn Emma Daur - F 12 At Home Yorks., Thornton
Benn Samuel Son - M 4 - Yorks., Thornton – born circa 1847

New House Fold, Clayton, Thornton, Bradford 2b 305 36 1
Benn Samuel Head Unm M 52 Hand Loom Weaver Yorks., Northowram – born circa 1799

2d 356 125 1 Chapel Lane, Thornton, Bradford
Benn Samuel Head Mar M 40 Warp Dresser Yorks., Clayton born circa 1811
Benn Grace Wife Mar F 39 Domestic Yorks., Clayton
Benn James Son Unm M 16 Joiner Yorks., Clayton
Benn Asa Son - M 13 Spinner Yorks., Clayton
Benn Iain Son - M 8 Spinner {Scholar deleted} Yorks., Clayton
Benn Mary Daur - F 5 - Yorks., Clayton
Benn Jonathan Son - M 3 - Yorks., Clayton

I don’t know what to make of them yet, I have not been able to check them out on my database of possible Samuel’s yet. What are your thoughts?

Regards and best wishes
Louise


06 September 05

Hi Louise, I'll have to refresh my memory about the BENNs (not to mention Avica!) but just a trivial point - I suspect that the cause of death would be 'pernicious anaemia'.

Cheers,
JAP

[Valda]

06 September 05

Replying to the easier of the two messages as like JAP I'll have to go back on the finer points of all the Benns (though from memory I think the 1902 death is probably the plumber?).As far as the Listers are concerned - you win some and you lose some and here I'm the bearer of bad tidings concerning your Bronte hopes.
1861 census RG9 3228 folio 60 Well Lane Haworth
Joseph Lister 48 outdoor labourer born Haworth
Betty Lister 48 born Haworth
plus 3 daughters.

The 1805 Scottish baptism also sounds too early as the censuses and her possible death registration all indicate a birth circa 1811/1812 with no obvious reason why she would adjusted her age by 10 years, unless it was to get it nearer her husband's. Evidenced against this age adjustment is the birth of her youngest child Mary. With a circa birth in 1805 she would be about 56 on Mary's birth and 51 on the birth of her known penultimate child. Have you checked the 1851 Bradford CD for Joseph and Elizabeth Lister as that would probably be your last chance for a specific birthplace in Scotland given on a census for Elizabeth and if there are any older children still unknown, it would show birthplaces for them with ages, which might help in a search for Elizabeth and Joseph's marriage date?

Regards
Valda


06 September

There were 6 Hannah Illingworth's in Idle on the 1891 census. The correct one turned out to be the 5th I tried, a widow with children and Samuel's landlady in 1891.Illingworth, Hannah abt 1849 Windhill, Yorkshire, Head Idle Yorkshire

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

08 September 05

Dear Valda Following your advice I had another look at the CD I purchased from the Bradford FHS which contains the census data for 1851 (I assume that if I keep giving them a plug it will satisfy the copyright people.) The disc says I am not allowed to use the information commercially but only for amateur genealogy, or words to that effect. I found a really good entry for our JDL and his family which I have copied out again here below. (I don’t seem to be able to line it up properly, so hope it reads okay)
1851 Census Under School, Manningham, Horton, Bradford 2310/2k/538/121 
Lister Joseph Head Married 40 Wool sorter Wakefield
Lister Betty Wife Married 40 Scotland
Lister Mary Daughter unm 18 At home Bradford
Lister John R Son unm  15 Piecer at worsted mill Bradfd
Lister Joseph Sonunm   13 Jobber in wool warehouse
Lister Elizabeth Daughter 11 Scholar Manningham
Lister Keziah Daughter   8 Scholar Manningham
Lister Henry   Son 6 Scholar Manningham
Lister Ann Daughter 4 Manningham
Lister William Son  N/K Manningham
Widdop John Father in law Married 65 Wool comber Steeton, Yorks
Lister William brother in law (sic) Married 45 Wool sorte rWakefield

This shows that although Betty was born in Scotland, she does belong to a local West Yorkshire family as her father was born in Steeton which is just north of Keighley and these days forms part of Bradford city council. It again puts her birth circa 1810/11.It also reveals some children we did not previously know about. I assume John R Lister is John Richard Lister, the names of his two grandfathers. My next task will be to find any baptisms of a Betty Widdup with a father John born Steeton. But failing that if I can find only one suitable John Widdup born Steeton circa 1785/6 then I might be able to manage without Betty's baptism. When I mentioned the Widdup baby baptised in 1805 in Peebles. I wasn’t meaning that it was Betty just that it might be connected in some way, it might offer an explanation as to what they were doing up there. I have now received a copy of her family tree from the Widdup researcher I found through the IGI. It doesn't help with my research unfortunately, her family moved away from West Yorkshire to Derbyshire a generation before John was born in Steeton. However it might tie in one day. Lydia Widdup identified Peebles, Scotland as her place of birth on a census, all her siblings were baptised in Nottinghamshire. So she is a bit of a mystery like our Betty six years later. I am still trying to get my head round the fact that there must have been two marriages between a Betty Widdup and a Joseph Lister in around 1833 in the Bradford area and wondering how I will ever find mine if the one in Howarth isn't it.
Dear Jap
Thanks for letting me know about pernicious anaemia, it sounds horrible

Best wishes to both
Louise Regards and thanks Louise


08 September 05

Hi, I'm new to this site but I have read through this thread with great interest. I have Benns, Sharps, Illingworths, a Lister and an Ormandroyd in my tree, however they don't fit in with the ones you are discussing. My Benns are from Halifax and were Weslyans at one time. They seem to favour biblical names Abraham m Grace Holmes 18C sons Isaac, David and dau. Betty Isaac b. 1789 m. Grace Sharpe 1816 Children Mark, Harriet, William, Hannah Mark b. 1822 Shelf m. Sarah Priestley in Wibsey children Mary, Isaac, Walter, Medley, Grace. So some of the names are consistent but I don't think there is a connection. I have spent much of my life in and around Braford. So may I help with some place names? Edingburgh Street is or was in the Listerhills area near to the town center. Harbour is in Wibsey - Cold Harbour, Harbour Road and Harbour Crescent all still exist. Slack, Slack Top, Slack Bottom and Slack side are all in Wibsey. The old Wibsey pronunciation of Benn sounds like beeann Upper George is in Wibsey (and there is a pub of the same name frequented by my grandfather).Horton, Wibsey, Buttershaw, Shelf, Queensbury (Queenshead), North Bierley and Northowram are all within a 2 hour walk of each other. Hope this helps and I look forward to reading more

Regards Dave
PS I have the name P Bronte on some of my family burials in Haworth.

[Valda]

09 September 05

Steeton appears to be in the parish of Kildwick, which supposedly has IGI coverage up to 1843 - I can't see a baptism for John Widdop though (but Widdops are present earlier).1861 census RG9 3335 folio 38Duckworth Lane Manningham Yorkshire John Widdop 75 Kildwick, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Gardenerin the house of widowed laundress Harriet Ackroyd aged 33 born Merfield? I can't see a possible death registration for him on FreeBMD. On the same census there is an Abram Widdop born circa 1788 in Kildwick, a blacksmith living in Bingley, John Widdop born circa 1816 a wool comber living in Keighley and Jane born circa 1828 living with her widowed mother also in Keighley. Nobody born Steeton. Widdop is a surname listed as being researched by a member of the Guild of One Name Studies
I will return to the Benns at the weekend when I have the time to get my head around the possibilities.

Regards
Valda



09 September 05

It is interesting that John WIDDOP (assuming they are the same John) is recorded as "married" in each census but is not living with a wife. If she is still alive, I wonder where she is (perhaps she came from Scotland and might have returned there).The free surname search on ScotlandsPeople shows that WIDDOP (and variants) is quite rare in Scotland. For instance, from 1855 (start of statutory registration) until 1900 there are only 2 WIDDOP deaths - one in 1868 and one in 1895. But that is just grasping at straws as the wife, if alive, might be anywhere. At the very beginning we had Joseph D LISTER in 1881 - married but his wife was not with him. Did we have Betty (WIDDOP) LISTER in 1881?7
Lillycroft Lane, Manningham, YorkshireRG11/4464 Fol 119 Piece 29
Bessy (sic) LISTER, Head, Married, 69, b Scotland
William LISTER, Son, Unmarried, 31, a Wool Sorter (Stuff), b Bradford, Yorkshire

There are some possible deaths for Betty on FreeBMD (though admittedly it is incomplete) Betty LISTER, age 76, Dec qtr 1887 Bradford Betty LISTER, age 78, Sep qtr 1888 Keighley Elizabeth LISTER, age 79, Dec qtr 1888 Bradford Manningham was in the Bradford registration district according to Genuki.

JAP


09 September 05

Dave, thanks for joining us. I shall try to find some old material about the Benns on the Halifax tops that I had sent to me 18 years ago - transcripts from non-conformist records. I will put it up here for you, I am sure some of the names are from your tree. The father of the Bronte girls was the vicar in Haworth and if my memory does not escape me, he was called Patrick. So I assume he is the man who buried your ancestors. That is quite a claim to fame! Have you been to the museum in the parsonage? I have been twice it is a really interesting place to visit.
Dear All I will back to study your comments and findings later - am on lunch hour at work so cannot do much now, but will make time over the weekend. It continues to excite and mystify - why wasn't Betty living with Joseph in 1881? He had one child and her children staying with him so he wasn’t an outcast, and she had one child staying with her, so she wasn’t an outcast either. What a funny family I have

Best wishes for a happy weekend
Louise