Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup

[Valda]

02 November 05

As Valda says, there could well have been several girls called Zillah BENN in the area. Re the Zillah BENN aged 8 in a HOLDSWORTH household in 1841, and the Zillah BENN b ca 1834, Clayton in a BENN household in 1851, they might well be the same person and could well be the following (extracted) record from the IGI Zillah BENN, b 1 May 1833, Queenshead General Baptist, Clayton by Bradford, parents Samuel BENN and Grace WHITE (there are quite a few BENN records in that church).Getting back to Samuel, and his parents and siblings, many more details about the evidence supporting the propositions are needed. At present it seems to be fairly slim insofar as we know it (and I think that's what Valda is saying). Basically, it seems to be that Samuel's father was a William (from his marriage certificate), that Samuel aged 7 in a Mary's household in the 1841 census is of the right age, and that Elizabeth in the same household in 1841 is of the right age to be the Elizabeth born 1818 to a William BENN and a Mary. How unfortunate that the father of the family with 7yo Samuel in 1841 was not in that census. It would have been very re-assuring had he been there and had he been William, a weaver! I wonder what (if anything) else the various researchers have and whether they could please share it.

For instance, assuming that the current hypothesis is correct (and I strongly suspect that it is!), I would like to see/know (some of these overlap) the full record from the Bradford parish register of the 1816 marriage of William BENN and Mary FOSTER the full record from the church register of Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton By Bradford for Elizabeth's baptism in 1818 whether any information exists to indicate that William had died by 1841 whether any possible unattached William has been found in the 1841 census whether Zillah has been found in the 1841 census. How/why did the researchers slot Zillah into the family? Zillah's 1841 marriage certificate (on FreeBMD as Zilla). Of interest - was her father William, a weaver. Was he listed as deceased. Names of witnesses. Margaret's 1849 marriage certificate - same matters of interest. Elizabeth's 1851 marriage certificate - same matters of interest. death certificate of Mary snr marriage cert of Mary jnr - of interest as above records after the 1841 census of Joshua Apologies if any of the above has already been answered.

JAP    

[Valda]

02 November 05

Having seen your generally relaxed air at having learnt of the two Zillah Benns, I wonder what odds you will give me on there being two Zillah Worsnops? Well according to the 1861 census there are two of those as well, I can feel that familiar sense of despair coming over me again. One born 1820 in Chatt Hill, living with Charles and no children in Manningham The other born in 1827 in Low Moor, Bradford with five children but no husband (Martha, Hannah, Samuel, Robert Edwin) living in Bradford GrrrrrrrrI don’t know the answer just now to any of the questions that JAP has posed. I have thought in some depth about Valda's comments. I will of course write and ask Bob where he got his information from. With regard to my throw away remark about Elizabeth Dean in Spotland, this is not the same reference to a Kirklees census of 1841, this is a 1851 census that I saw on the free service currently being offered on ancestry. comIt is something we have not see before on these pages. It is HO107/2245 / 459/ 5/ 18 Samuel Benn abt 1831 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Brother-in-law Spotland Lancashire Ann Dean abt 1842 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Daughter Spotland Lancashire Edward Dean abt 1817 Bradford, Yorkshire, England Head Spotland Lancashire Elizabeth Dean abt 1820 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Wife Spotland Lancashire Ellen Dean abt 1848 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Daughter Spotland Lancashire George Dean abt 1844 Haslingden, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire Joseph Dean abt 1846 Haslingden, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire Moses Dean abt 1850 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire Robert Dean abt 1851 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire

It may be a red herring, but I was just asking myself, in that earlier post, how we knew that Elizabeth married Mr Isherwood and not Mr Dean - especially given that we would have found a home for our Samuel in the missing 1851 census. I am a bit worried that the 1841 census says that our Samuel was 7 when we want him to be 9 or 10. I know that older people can be mixed up about their age, but surely a child of 7 is not likely to be confused with a boy 3 years older? Far be it from me to question people with much more wisdom, but there are so many things about the multitudinous Samuel Benns that confuse and complicate me. I don’t know how others have previously arrived at any of these certainties. My own family name has been traced back 500 years, down rutted tracks into farm yards, across fields into small churches, generation after generation living in hamlets where they tidily kept their children's names exclusive, just like we do now. There is no chance in the world that my sister and I would have children with the same names. But this lot - my paternal Grandmother's line, have been difficult in every branch. We are on our 11th page and there have been 1300 viewings of this thread, I am extremely loathe to throw the towel in, but I cannot help wondering if we are beating our collective heads against a brick wall that will never be demolished. Let's hope that Bob can offer some answers about where he got his information from! Sorry to be so despondent after such great work

Best wishes
Louise         

[Valda]

03 November 05

Hi again Louise,1. Two Zillah WORSNOPs I'd be as relaxed about two Zillah WORSNOPs as I am about two Zillah BENNs - obviously I can't speak for Valda but I suspect she would be too! WORSNOP was a far from uncommon surname, Zillah was a far from uncommon forename. Check it out in the IGI - enter just the surname WORSNOP and region British Isles and see how many it produces (including plenty in Yorkshire). Ditto with just the forename Zillah. The marriage of the second Zillah isn't in the IGI or on FreeBDM so we can't find out her surname but what are surely christenings for two of the children are in the IGI - Martha Ann in 1851 in Wibsey, and Hannah in 1854 in Wibsey, parents' names given as Abraham WORSNOP and Zillah.2. Which marriage of an Elizabeth BENN? Well, I guess we'd need to see both marriage certificates (Elizabeth BENN to Edward DEAN, and Elizabeth BENN to James ISHERWOOD) - and hope that only one of them has a father named William. An Elizabeth BENN married Sep qtr 1838 Halifax an Edward DEAN is on the same page. What was the occupation of the Samuel BENN, brother-in-law, in the 1851? Was he unmarried? A couple of points which suggest that Samuel of Spotland was not 'our' Samuel are- a Samuel BENN married in the Dec qtr 1852, Rochdale Rochdale includes Spotland.- the age of the Samuel BENN, brother-in-law was presumably given as 20 in the census on 30 Mar 1851) to produce a birth-date of 1831.

However, the Samuel BENN, residence Horton, who married Elizabeth JOWETT of Horton in Aug 1853 - nearly two and a half years later - was only 20 at the time of his marriage. 3. Census age of Samuel BENN Going back to my BENN aide-memoire on page 8 (I knew I'd find it useful some day!), I find that an age of 7 in the census on 6 Jun 1841 fits happily with Samuel's next known age of 20 at his marriage on 23 Aug 1853 (we haven't yet found him in the 1851).Am I missing something? Why would we have expected him to be 9 or 10 in the 1841??On the assumption that all of the Samuels in the summary are one and the same person (and that my arithmetic stands up - always doubtful)-from his marriage age of 20 in 1853, we'd expect him to be 7 or 8 in 1841.-from his census age of 25 in 1861, we'd expect him to be 4 or 5.-from his census age of 34 in 1871, we'd expect him to be 3 or 4.-from his census age of 40 in 1881, we'd expect him to be 0 or 1.-from his census age of 50 in 1891, we'd expect him to be 0 or 1.-from his death age of 53, also in 1891, we'd expect him to be 2 or 3. I'd be putting most faith on the 1853 marriage age for a comparison with the 1841 census age.4. My questions were essentially the same as asking where Bob (and others) got their information from. The listing I made was of possible sources that I could think of which might have helped to engender confidence in the hypothesis. Same names over and over Louise, you must have been very lucky in your research! All of the people I've researched use the same forenames over and over again both within and between generations.

Cheers,
JAP

[Valda]

03 November 05

Samuel Benn born Halifax circa 1831 and living in Spotland is still there in 1861 and married to Jane. Still there with Jane in 1891 (1852 marriage has Jane Pilkington as the potential spouse). On the 1851 census there are 15 Sam* Benn(s) showing all in West Yorkshire. Of the Benns within a reasonably age range, none were new to the 'fray'. I also checked for Ben* Benn(s) just in case your Samuel was hiding amongst them and in general Benn(s) of North Bierley and finally Sam*(s) of North Bierley. What I learnt from this excise is thankfully we are not attempting the surname Barraclough. The place is saturated with Barracloughs. There is just a horrific number of them with a sizeable proportion called John. There were about 50 Samuels in North Bierley so basically if yours was enumerated or indexed in another surname I'm not likely to find him. I can afford to be laid back about Zillah Worsnop because Zillah Benn in her own right remains completely unconnected to the family anyway. The 1841 census entry should have been the evidence that placed her with them and she is not there. Even a marriage would only give the laughable evidence of a father called William Benn, possibly a weaver.

So at this point it is a bit of a side show whether she married Charles Worsnop or Abraham Worsnop (as on the 1871 census. Abraham is married but with his family on the 1851 census - no Zillah). Luckily we are not trying to establish your line through Zillah. Whenever anyone says this must be the marriage of ......to......., after all how many people with this seemingly unusual name can there be in this area at this time, I always work on the principle of at the very least two. Seemingly unusual names are often locative. More unusual first names can be locative and usually set in a period. The rise in popularity of Bibilical names like Zillah in early C19th West Yorkshire would undoubtedly be connected with the rise of non-conformism. Unless you are a thorough one namer you often can't see the 'whole picture' (dangerous to assume even then that you can) and can make assumptions with connections, though the national indexing of the censuses 1851-1901 begins to make it possible to do what a one namer should be doing as standard, which is proving each line through evidence and elimination. Most family historians once beyond family memories, 'prove' their lines with a 'heady mixture' of evidence and assumption. They also do not thoroughly question the veracity of their evidence. This is why I always check what I am told at source for myself. The speed of the Internet allows for us to run ahead of ourselves. We are still waiting for Samuel's marriage certificate. As far as I know the only evidence of Samuel being a mechanic comes from the marriage? On all other censuses (don't remember about his legitimate children's birth certificates - none of which we've actually seen) he is a weaver 1861-1891. I don't know where Dave's iron work labourer comes from? As I've yet to 'see' the marriage certificate, Samuel's age, occupation, father's name, occupation and whether deceased or not if given, I can remain relaxed about going off on tangents. At this point there is nothing which actually fixes the Samuel who married Elizabeth Jowett in 1853 to the 1841 census (other than elimination on later censuses, which is dangerous because I could say where's the proof the 1841 Samuel didn't die).

Because there is no William on that census, we are relying on Samuel's age on marriage and the possibility he was under age and therefore either through the banns or less likely by licence there is permission given for the marriage from his 'legal guardian'. If the marriage only gives us age and father's name we still would have to prove the connection to the disappointing 1841 census which lacks a William, if that's what Samuel's father's name was on his marriage. The difficulty would be proving that 1841 census family had a William in the first place and that it was your William. So one step at a time.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

03 November 05

Hi Valda (cc Louise),Firstly As I asked (and Valda re-affirms, I think) - how did the researchers slot Zillah who m Charles WORSNOP into the family! Secondly Two ladies called Zillah - just a confusion I think. I wasn't even beginning to suggest that 8yo Zillah BENN in 1841 who probably married Abraham WORSNOP (perhaps ca 1851) had anything at all to do with 'our' Samuel's family (which is said to have included a Zillah BENN who is said to have married Charles WORSNOP in 1841!) ... These are girls from different age groups. Surely 'our' Zillah (married to Charles WORSNOP) was not the wife of Abraham WORSNOP and mother of his children??We still have to find Zillah BENN or WORSNOP in 1841 (remembering that people of those names with husband probably Charles WORSNOP married in 1841). And also remembering that WORSNOP and BENN were common names.Thirdly Samuel of Spotland seems to be disposed of by Valda's census information added to the date of his marriage in the area. Fourthly as Valda says (as I read it) don't begin to worry about the same names recurring in the same area. It's not unusual - it's the norm! Which is certainly what I have found.

Cheers,
JAPPS

 I am glad that my one-name studies (NOT registered with GOONS) are both rare and usually locative! Unfortunately there's not much interest in them! Though very recently, by pure chance, I came across a descendant - great fun.
         

         
03 November 05

Thanks for your messages, which have made me feel a bit better. Valda, I have not ordered the marriage certificate, having had a go at ordering one in 1854 which was the wrong one and getting half my money back, because Brenda had it and had said what it said. I show it below. I can order my own copy but had not thought there was any more to learn, please advise on that.23rd August 1853 at The Parish Church in the Parish of Bradford - I understand that this is St.Peter CE Church, Bradford, Yorks , and is now the Cathedral. Samuel BENN, 20, Bachelor, Mechanic, residence Horton, Father William BENN,a weaver Elizabeth JOWETT, 20, Spinster, Weaver, residence Horton, Father George JOWETT, a comber Married after Banns by W F Black curate .witnesses William Holmes and John MitchellI am happy to see my Spotland worry has been taken care of. I am happy too that Zillah Worsnop/Benn is not a problem. I thought Samuel should have been a bit older in the 1841 census because I was working on the premise that he was baptised in 1831 - this from Bob's family group which might or might not be extracted from the IGI. But of course, there is no proof that the family is "our" family and won’t be until we learn what evidence was used to substantiate the information. ("Our"s because I like to think that you all now have Samuel in your family tree, at least in spirit)JAP - I agree with you that I should be ordering a pile of certificates, I will have to find the references, presumably in FreeBMD. I am assuming I should be looking for some more birth certificates for children of Samuel/Elizabeth, those born in the 1850s this time, rather than the later ones, to see what job he had and where they were living. Also the marriage certificates of some of Samuel's putative siblings, Elizabeth, Mary, Margaret etc.

Best wishes to all and thanks again
Louise

[Valda]

03 November 05
 
Dear Louise, I certainly love Samuel - even if he did apparently leave lots of kids behind! Well, who knows - perhaps it was all for a good reason and perhaps he kept sending money back home either voluntarily or by decree and perhaps this was why (unemployed and perhaps in poor health) he couldn't also support little John Wilson/William (and who would deny Samuel and Eliza a bit of comfort together - if, let's hope, such it was).And still we don't know for certain that Samuel in 1881 is the Samuel of earlier years o Though it is seemingly increasingly likely ...No Louise, I wasn't remotely suggesting that YOU order lots or certificates (and we've had the details of the Samuel BENN-Elizabeth JOWETT marriage already). If I were you, I'd actually like to see the parish registers first. But who knows. The important thing I want to know is what certificates the other researchers have. Don't even think of wasting your money when others might already have the certificates!!Take lots of care,

JAP

         
         
03 November 05

Hi, Valda the Iron works labourer came from a reply by Louise 1st Nov. Samuel is identified at the following addresses1841 Brown Royd Hill, Wibsey1853 Mechanic, Horton (marriage to Elizabeth Jowett)1855 Iron Works Labourer, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley (birth of a child I assume)1861 Stuff Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley1871, Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley Did the info come from Bob Chapple? No assumptions - where did he get it from? Is the child b. 1855 registered on BMD? (yorkshirebmd.org.uk have Bradford, N.Bierley for that year)Can the child be followed through on 1861 and 1871 census returns? and further? If these questions can be answered then a b. cert for the child will establish the continuity of Samuel's family. I agree with JAP that a pool of proven resources would be most useful. The only Benn cert. I have is the marriage of Mary Hannah to Joseph Greenwood Bland in 1876. I have various copies of census returns but they pertain to my own Benns and likewise headstone photos.

Very best regards
Dave
   

      
03 November 05

I'd forgotten we had the details of the marriage - too many messages and life goes on in between. I  would check whether the marriage banns survive for St. Peter Bradford in 1853. They both married under age so it should be with somebody's permission. It isn't always shown, but its worth a try. This might also work for some of the other potential siblings' marriages - Margaret was only 16 or 17 in 1849 and Zillah probably about 20 in 1841 (Sept quarter - on the 1851 census she has a son called Sharp and a daughter called Amanda) Elizabeth Isherwood with husband James is in Horton on the 1851 census (James 24 years in the 96th Regiment). Two doors away is William Jowett a mechanic. Rather than order certificates for anything doing a search of St. Peter's (baptisms?), marriages(and burials?) would be the cheapest and quickest way to find members of the family - at least after 1837 (absolutely nothing at St Peter's up to 1837 on the national burial index, so they may only marry there - day out in Bradford).Employing a local researcher to do it for you would be cheaper than ordering certificates , but you would have to establish a strict criteria of which possible Benn extracts you might be interested between which period, otherwise it could be time consuming. The only birth certificate I would be interested in would be Joshua's. But I think it unlikely it exists.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

04 November 05

Hi again Louise, Genuki gives information about location of the parish records at Click Here

(http//www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/CBW/WRY/Bradford.html)

It states (in part) A parish and market town, in Morley division of Agbrigg and Morley, Liberty of Pontefract 6 miles from Bingley, 8 from Halifax, 10 from Leeds, Keighley and Otley, 14 from Huddersfield, 15 from Wakefield, 34 from York, 196 from London. Population  13,064. The Church is a vicarage, dedicated to St. Peter, in the deanery of Pontefract. Deposited Registers (WYAS, Bradford, microfiche copy only) Baptisms Registers with incumbent (Microfiche 1599-1951) Marriages Registers with incumbent (Microfiche 1599-1983) Burials Registers with incumbent (Microfiche 1599-1919)"WYAS stands for West Yorkshire Archive Service which is at

http//www.archives.wyjs.org.uk/

They have a research service. I was going to suggest that a cheaper option would be to order the relevant film in to your nearest LDS Family History Centre. However, looking at the Library Catalogue on FamilySearch it seems that they only have Bishops Transcripts (which I've found can sometimes have fewer details that the actual Parish Register) and only to 1851 i.e. this would not cover Samuel's marriage which was in 1853.But I guess the first thing is to wait for One-Namer Bob Chapple's advice on what source material he has.

JAP
         
   
      
04 November 05

Hello, I am in a very much better mood today I have just heard from Bob Chapple who is going to send me all sorts of material, copies of census returns, transcripts of parish records, details of marriage certificates etc to help in our quest. I will of course let you have this information the very moment it arrives

With very best wishes
Louise
         
   
      
05 November 05

Excellent  A thorough one namer who has been researching for a few years should hold information like this as standard. It saves a lot of time and effort. I would be interested to see if he has checked the marriage banns though. I would only have checked that source if I needed to and if he has eliminated all the other possible family groups in the way we have tried to do with the Samuels he may have acquired sufficient evidence to place all the siblings and their respective parents together, though without a baptism I would have thought Zillah was a bit tricky. At least Samuel is with the family in 1841.

Regards
Valda
         
   
      
09 November 05

Hi, Try this site to search Farnley

http//www.calverley.info/

this list of Northowram Benns might or might not be of use Northowram Census 1851  RG107/2302F/
 
Dave

[Valda]

09 November 05

Dave That's good stuff thanks very much! I have been away for a few days but have now returned home and was delighted to receive my package from Bob. He has sent me first of all the three census returns we have already gathered together - the 1861, 1871 and 1881 census. He has sent me a copy of the birth certificate of Zillah Benn, daughter of Samuel Benn and Elizabeth nee Jowett. He has also sent me transcripts of the marriages in Bradford St Peters - which give lots of detail thankfully. From these various sources I can now tell you the following Samuel and Elizabeth had nine children Ruth born circa 1855 who married Adam Sugden 13/7/1873 by banns, when she was 17, she was living in Horton, father Samuel Benn, Weaver Margaret born circa 1857/1858 who married James Stephenson 2/12/1877 when she was 20 by banns, she was living at 77 Kingswood Street, Horton father Samuel Benn, weaver. Ann born circa 1859/1860 who married Leonard Ormondroyd 11/11/1876 when she was 17, by banns, they were both living at Pot House Wibsey, father Samuel Benn, worsted weaver. Zillah born 13/12/1861 at Revy Hall, North Bierley, father Samuel Benn, stuff factory weaver, his mark, mother Elizabeth nee Jowett. She married Robert Gornall (spelling?) 10/4/1881 aged 19, living at 77 Kingswood Street, Horton, father Samuel Benn Weaving Overlooker. William Benn born c 1864 who married Margaret Esgate, 23/12/1883, aged 20, mule spinner, father Samuel Benn, Weaver's overlooker. Living 10 Whatmough Street, Thornton. Witnesses James Stephenson (who I believe was his brother in law) and Albert Ackroyd. Mary Benn born c 1866 (slightly less sure as she changes with the census) married to Harry Cordingley 23/11/1884 aged 19. Father Samuel Benn, Weaver's overlooker, she was living at 10 Whatmough Street, Horton. Martha Benn born c 1869 who married Hamlet Greenwood (wow!) on 3/8/1891 aged 22, father Samuel Benn, weaver's overlooker, she was living at 10 Marlborough Street (did they move from Whatmough Street or did the road change its name?). Joshua Benn born c 1870 who married Lavinia Muscroft on 19/10/1889, aged 19, living at 10 Marlborough Street, father Samuel Benn, Weaver's overlooker. Witnesses Martha Benn (sister above I assume) and Luke Muscroft.

Ellen Benn born 1873 who married Thomas Wood, I don’t remember when but we have recorded it elsewhere on this thread. From the census returns we have already seen we know that Elizabeth and her children lived as follows1861 Revy Hall, North Bierley1871 Reevy Hall, Wibsey1881 77 Kingswood Street1891 10 Marlborough Street (where Ellen and husband Thomas have moved in with Elizabeth and she has been supplanted as the head of the household)In 1883 and 1884 they were at 10 Whatmough Street which is either a different address or a renamed street. The only child not where s/he was supposed to be, now that we know their ages and marriages etc was Ruth in 1871 when we know she was staying with grandparents George and Ruth Jowett (her namesake).I am confident that in 1881 this Samuel was with a young woman the same age as his eldest child, and was the father of John William Benn, described according to the pattern above, as a weaving overlooker - either on the birth registration or the census, cannot remember which but they were taken only a week apart. I will post this and then come on to the evidence for the next generation back.

Regards
Louise

NB Most couples shared the same communal witnesses, presumably church wardens or similar, where they were family I have named them, otherwise not.

[Valda]

09 November 05

Samuel Benn aged 20, a mechanic, from Horton, father William Benn a weaver, married Elizabeth Jowett aged 20, a weaver, from Horton, father George Benn, a comber, witnesses common. date 23/8/1853 by banns Elizabeth Benn, aged 33, from Horton, father William Benn, a weaver, married James Isherwood, 43, a comber, from Horton, father John Isherwood a weaver, witnesses common. date 7.1.1851 by banns (actually every single marriage I have detailed was by banns, in this generation and the next, although I have not always stated it.)John Benn, aged 21, a miner from Bierley ,father William Benn a miner(A different family? Bob thinks so, he is probably right) married Mary Seed, 20, a weaver, father William Seed, a labourerer, 19/5/1851 witnesses common. So Elizabeth and Samuel look like siblings but there are none of the others in the parish records 1851 - 1892 - other siblings could have been earlier? He has sent details of other Benns in the register but they don’t concern us so I have not recorded them. So where are we now and where do we want to go next?

Best wishes
Louise
         
         
09 November 05

Which marriage of an Elizabeth BENN? Well, I guess we'd need to see both marriage certificates (Elizabeth BENN to Edward DEAN, and Elizabeth BENN to James ISHERWOOD) - and hope that only one of them has a father named William. An Elizabeth BENN married Sep qtr 1838 Halifax an Edward DEAN is on the same page
Elizabeth Benn who married Edward Dean, I can now tell you, had a father named Joshua, sorry for the red herring - she married at St Peters and Bob had picked it up.

Louise
      

   
09 November 05
 
Samuel is identified at the following addresses1855 Iron Works Labourer, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley (birth of a child I assume)Did the info come from Bob Chapple? No assumptions - where did he get it from? Is the child b. 1855 registered on BMD? (yorkshirebmd.org.uk have Bradford, N.Bierley for that year)Can the child be followed through on 1861 and 1871 census returns? and further? Dave, given what I have now recorded above, I think the iron works labourer reference must have come from the birth certificate of Ruth Benn - which I have not seen but could now order if we thought it important. Perhaps Brenda has it, I think it is she whose husband is descended from Ruth.

Best wishes
Louise