Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup

[Valda]

17 October 05

Thanks Louise, I hope you have more luck than I did but don't let it take up too much of your time. If the Mill Hey, Haworth family is at the bottom of the census page would you have a look on the next page for me please. Bob didn't mention any recent emails but he did say that he had many Benn contacts and even though I wasn't in his line he has had contacts who were. He wanted my snails mail address because he has 10 pages (500 names) of Benn material to post to me. If he doesn't make contact with you I can forward the info that he sends.

Dave
   

      
20 October 05

Thanks Louise, I hope you have more luck than I did but don't let it take up too much of your time. If the Mill Hey, Haworth family is at the bottom of the census page would you have a look on the next page for me please. Dave
Dave, I have searched Kirklees and Halifax 1851 for Blands and Greenwoods, for all four, to no avail. Haworth and Keighley are not on the site. There is a Keighley District Family History Society with census indexes for sale for only a few pounds I notice though. Perhaps you should contact them? I can confirm that the Benn/Sugden census I earlier reproduced is indeed the Kirklees 1841 census. Bob has now been in touch and will be getting back to me in due course

Hurrah
Louise
         
   
      
22 October 05

Thanks Louise, The Keighley Family History group sounds like a good idea, I'm going to google them now. The Info arrived from Bob Chapple, tons of stuff that I didn't have but my basic tree and his are virtually the same give or take a year or two on some of the dates. It's great to find that someone else has covered over 200 years of family history and arrived independently, at exactly the same conclusions. I hope that your Samuel can now be given his correct place in time and space and reunited with his parents.
Very best regards to you and all the Joseph Dyson Listers

Dave
         
         
22 October 05

Part 2 BENN, Margaret 1877 December Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire COTTERILL, Joseph 1877 December Marriages Bradford Volume 9b page 124RG12 4458 folio 8653 Royd St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire James Stephenson 24 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head Married Wool combing overlooker Margaret Stephenson 23 Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Stuff weaver Ruth Stephenson 2 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Zillah Stephenson 8 mths Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter

Valda, I have got a new census database running on my new swanky laptop. When I came to enter this entry above I wondered if you had missed a bit. I am dead happy that Margaret who had two daughters named Ruth and Zillah, who are named after her sisters and her Aunties, is a daughter of Samuel. But not married to Joseph Cotterill, rather to a James Stephenson. Or are you saying that she clearly is married to James but he does not appear on the freebmd? You said you only found one entry for Margaret's marriage, so either you did not find her marriage to James, but found the census instead, or you did find it but didn't record it. Perhaps FreeBMD is not up to date yet for that period and they are the unmatched couple of four individuals from that page. There may be more queries as I go on to record the info. Thanks again for all your help with this (I know I sound like a worn record but that doesn't mean I have stopped meaning it.

Louise

[Valda]

22 October 05

As far as the Listers are concerned - you win some and you lose some and here I'm the bearer of bad tidings concerning your Bronte hopes.1861 census RG9 3228 folio 60 Well Lane HaworthJoseph Lister 48 outdoor labourer born HaworthBetty Lister 48 born Haworthplus 3 daughters. Valda

Well there is good news and there is good news. According to the IGI, a Joseph Lister married a Betty Hartley on 14th Feb 1831 in Haworth, I suggest they are the couple above. So the record of Joseph Lister marrying Betty Widdop on 28th July 1833 in Haworth is back in the frame for being my couple. So.....that means Patrick Bronte is back on for the marrying vicar!http//www.haworth-village.org.uk/brontes/patrick/patrick.aspThe above link goes into a bit more information about him.

Best wishes Louise (Oooooh how lucky am I??)


         
22 October 05
 
Part 3 On the 1881 census there is only one Benjamin Benn abt 1838 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head 2 Lister St, Halifax, Yorkshire Valda
I just stuck this quote in to point out the home address, Lister Street. Bradford is knee deep in Listers, so much so that they name parks and roads after them. A Joseph Lister invented penicillin or anaesthetic or something like that and is all over Google. And while I am on the subject, I find searching for William Benn, father of Samuel a bit of a task too as it turns out that the father of Anthony Wedgewood Benn, known as Tony Benn is William Benn. And on a separate thread that you are familiar with, searching for Heritage + Oxfordshire is a nightmare too - it is all about our heritage and the heritage lottery fund......

Sigh Louise
         
      
   
22 October 05

Marriages Sep 1873Benn Ruth  Bradford, Y. 9b 42 one of the men was SUGDEN Adam  Bradford Y. 9b 42 On the 1881 census Adam is a widower of 26 living alone in Horton (remember there is a Martha A. Sugden aged 4 born Bradford living with her grandmother Elizabeth on the same census) On the 1891 census Adam still a widower is in Horton with his 14 year old daughter Martha E. born Horton. It doesn't completely prove anything - I can't find Ruth Sugden's death registration on FreeBMD to help with an age and help prove it was Ruth Benn who probably married Adam Sugden, but on the 1871 census Adam Sugden was in North Bierley staying with his grandparents, so even though Ruth Benn can't be found on the 1871 census, which is where I came in, Adam is in the right place at the right time to be her potential spouse in 1873.

Valda, now that we know that this is the right connection you have made here above, please may we have the details for my new Benn relative, I think it was David, Brenda's husband that was descended from this couple, from Martha herself in fact I assume.

Thanks
Louise

[Valda]

23 October 05

Your opening statement re Listers and Haworth presumes the same Joseph Lister did not marry twice, though I can't find a burial for a Betty/Elizabeth in between the two dates in Haworth. There are 16 Joseph Listers on the 1861 census in Yorkshire (nearly 30 years later) of the correct age to have married in the early 1830s - so some work to go on this to prove it one way or the other. At moment I do not have access to the 1851 census. There is a Joseph Lister born Haworth circa 1832 in Keighley 1861-1881 censuses but he is not showing on the IGI for Listers born Haworth to a father Joseph or indeed to anyone, but then there were Baptists in Haworth. WILLIAM LISTER Christening 22 APR 1832 Haworth ANN LISTER Christening 09 FEB 1834 Haworth JAMES LISTER Christening 13 MAR 1836 Haworth JOHN LISTER Christening 15 APR 1838 Haworth Batch coverage 1813-1847 children of Joseph and Betty Lister This is the Lister family in Haworth in 1861Joseph Lister abt 1813 Haworth, Yorkshire, Head (on the 1871 census he gives a birth circa 1811 of Yeadon)Betty Lister abt 1813 Haworth, Yorkshire, Wife (born circa 1811 in 1871)Martha Lister abt 1841 Haworth, Yorkshire, Daughter Sarah A Lister abt 1843 Haworth, Yorkshire, Daughter Susey Lister abt 1849 Haworth, Yorkshire, Daughter On the 1861 census these are the other Listers born Haworth Thomas Lister abt 1806 Haworth, Yorkshire, Head Keighley Yorkshire William Lister abt 1807 Haworth, Yorkshire, Brother-in-law Haworth Yorkshire (sister Martha Sutcliffe born circa 1802 Haworth) William Lister abt 1828 Haworth, Yorkshire, Head Keighley Yorkshire (with brother James born circa 1839 Kirkstall)I've rather lost the thread of the Listers now - too many Benns.

Do we know what your Joseph Lister's wife's maiden name was? I remember she was born Scotland. Presumably one of their children was born after civil registration so to prove her maiden name you will have to get one of those certificates and then you will know whether Haworth is a possibility or not. Otherwise collecting Haworth Listers isn't necessarily getting you anywhere. Re Margaret Benns marriage I accidentally took out the wrong spouse BENN, Margaret 1877 December Marriages Bradford COTTERILL, Joseph 1877 December Marriages Bradford STEPHENSON, James 1877 December Marriages Bradford Sugdens1871 census RG10 4442 folio 11Slack Side North Bierley Yorkshire Mary Sugden 78 Horton, Yorkshire, Head Widow House Keeper Mary A Sugden 37 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver William Sugden 18 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson Worsted Weaver Adam Sugden 16 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson Worsted spinning overlooke rFred Sugden 11 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson Same in 1861 apart from they are in North Bierley and everyone except the grandmother who still claims Horton as her birthplace, is born North Bierley. My tendency from the 1861 census would be to think Mary Ann the daughter could be the mother of all 3 boys?1881 census RG11 4456 folio 15585 Old Road, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire Adam  Sugden 26 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Widower Worsted Weaver Living next door - no 8381 Old Road, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire Elizabeth Lister 59 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Married House Keeper (crossed through) - wife of James Lister born circa 1815 Clayton according to the 1871 census or Horton 1861Joseph Lister 26 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Single Dyer Martha Lister 20 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Single Worsted Weaver1891 census RG12 3639 folio 66204 Southfield Lane Horton Sugden, Adam 35 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Widower Wool Warehouseman Sugden, Martha E. 14 Horton, Yorkshire Worsted Spinner
1901 census RG13 4166 folio 1467 Copley Street Bradford Yorkshire Adam Sugden 46 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Married Warehouseman Woolpacker Elizabeth Sugden 51 Bradford, Yorkshire, Wife Married Weaver Alpaca From FreeBMD Martin, Elizabeth

1891 December Marriages Bradford Sugden, Adam 1891 December Marriages Bradford On the same page Sarah Hannah Sugden married a Thomas Campbell

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

23 October 05

Hi Louise and Valda, I guess it's possible that you've still got Patrick BRONTE in the frame, Louise. But how on earth to find out! As we know, there are the following two Haworth marriages*Joseph LISTER m Betty HARTLEY 14 Feb 1831*Joseph LISTER m Betty WIDDOP 28 Jul 1833In the 1861 census, we have seen two families of a Joseph LISTER and wife Betty/Elizabeth*Joseph LISTER (an outdoor labourer) and wife Betty in Haworth with three daughters*Louise's Joseph LISTER (a wool sorter) and wife Elizabeth m.s. WIDDOP (b Scotland) in Bradford with their children. We know that Elizabeth's ms was WIDDOP because Louise obtained the birth certs of daughters Kezia and (Louise's) Eliza and they gave Elizabeth's maiden name as WIDDOP. So it's tempting to think that Betty in Haworth in 1861 is Betty HARTLEY. What next? I suppose the birth cert of one of the three daughters of Joseph and Betty living with them in Haworth in 1861 would be helpful in order to show whether their mother is HARTLEY - Martha b ca 1841, Sarah b ca 1843, and Susey b ca 1849 all b Haworth. Haworth is in Keighley registration district. FreeBMD has a Martha LISTER Mar qtr 1842 in Keighley, a couple of Sarah Ann LISTERs in Keighley (one Jun qtr 1943 and one Dec qtr 1844), and a Susey LISTER in Keighley Sep qtr 1848.If the mother of any of these girls (born in the 1840s) is Betty HARTLEY, this would mean that Joseph LISTER who married Betty WIDDOP in 1833 couldn't be the same man as Joseph LISTER who married Betty HARTLEY in 1831. And we'd be free to consider that Louise's Joseph LISTER is quite likely to be the Joseph LISTER who married Betty WIDDOP in Haworth - though it would not be proven. Is there any other piece of information which might be useful? I guess that it would be worth seeing the full entry for the marriage of Joseph LISTER and Betty WIDDOP from the Haworth parish register - just in the hope that there might be some clue there (occupation, parents' names, anything at all) ...JAPPS I've just been going back through the thread and found something I'd forgotten. From the 1851 census, Elizabeth (WIDDOP) LISTER's father was John WIDDOP, married, 65, a Wool Comber born Steeton, and she had a brother William WIDDOP, married, 45, a Wool Sorter born Wakefield - they were both in the household of Louise's Joseph LISTER in Manningham. I wonder where their wives were!

[Valda]

23 October 05
 
On the principle you can hardly expect a West Yorkshire man to give the same place of birth twice on consecutive censuses you would hardly be suprised to find that John and William Widdop do not show on the 1861 census. As I can't check the 1851 census I do not know just how many Widdops with the same age and name can be found on that census to try and eliminate the candidates of the same age but different birthplace found on the 1861 census (one each but different occupations).All Widdops born Haworth on the 1861 census (the others are probably just giving Keighley to muddy the water) are born at a more recent date. So I'm confined to producing a Widdop born Steeton on the 1861 census just in case he proves of use later. Bit young though.

1861 census RG9 3282 folio 413 Westgate Halifax Yorkshire Benjamin Widop 35 Steaton, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Wollen Carder Mary Widop 32 Haworth, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Power loom weaver of worsted pieces. On the principle that Benjamin still thinks he was born in Steeton on the 1871 census when he was in living in Wilsden, he is either the exception that proves the rule as far as one of Louise's Yorkshire relatives goes, or he can't possibly be related, or at the very most only distantly.

Also on the 1871 census in Keighley is Mary Widdop a widow born Westburn Sussex circa 1787 who suddenly has a daughter Jane born Steeton circa 1828 who was born blind. No surprise therefore that on the 1861 census in Keighley, Mary was born circa 1791 in Westburn Sussex and daughter Jane circa 1828 in Kildwick.

I'm afraid I am now stepping out of what is laughingly called my recently acquired comfort zone i.e. places between Bradford and Halifax. However my map says Haworth is to the south west of Keighley on the road crossing the moor to Hebden Bridge where Heptonstall is (as in IGI baptisms). Steeton is on the road north west of Keighley to Skipton. Slightly further on the same road is Kildwick. Bingley is between Keighley and Bradford to the south west. So at least we do seem to be establishing a West Yorkshire triangle where all Louise's relatives disappear into Keighley/Halifax/Bradford (or may be Skipton/ Hebden Bridge and Bradford) to be precise. Wakefield of course ruins the Bermuda analogy.

There are 30 Widdops on the 1861 census born Keighley including George born circa 1801 who is in Haworth. Including Jane already mentioned, there are 4 born Kildwick, one of whom is a gardener born circa 1786 called John lodging in Manningham. Another is Abraham born circa 1788 a blacksmith in Bingley with his wife also born Kildwick and finally John in Keighley born circa 1816 a wool comber. On the same page as John is Betty born Keighley circa 1788 a widow and baker of her own bread. And then there are all the Silsden  Widdops (which seems pretty close to Kildwick and Steeton) and the Bingley Widdops, so there is easily as many of these as there were Benns to give a wide variety of birth permutations and dopplegangers.

Widdop as a surname is registered with the Guild of One Name Studies (no email address though) so I would suggest Louise that you might want to contact the person concerned. You must include a stamped addressed envelope. One namers to remain in the Guild must always reply to any enquiry but only if you include a SAE to be

sure.http//www.Blimey/cgibin/surname.cgi?find=widdop&ampGo=Search

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

24 October 05

Hello friendsI see that the IGI has a baptism of a William Widdop to John Widdop and Susey in 1806 in Heptonstall at the Wesleyan Methodist, born August, baptised November. Heptonstall I can tell you is up the steepest hill I have ever climbed, even in a car, above Hebden Bridge. It is also the village/hamlet place where Sylvia Plath is buried. I am not keen to claim it though, even though it is not too far away, because Betty Widdop (our Eliza's mother) had hordes of kids, and not one of them a Susey. For John Widdop, Betty's father, I rather fancy John Widdop, baptised 05 AUG 1792 Kildwick, Yorkshire, England but born apparently on 05 AUG 1786 Son of Elizabeth and William. I think we established somewhere that John was born in Steeton which is in Kildwick, have I got the geography right? I like this particularly because the only known children of our John Widdop are William and Elizabeth!

Louise


         
25 October 05

Hi Louise, Nice to leave the BENNs for a while! As for Patrick Bronte and now Sylvia Plath ... Fascinating. Yes, living in Joseph Dyson Lister's household in Manningham in 1851 was Joseph's father-in-law John WIDDOP, a Wool Comber, age 65, married (but no wife with him), born Steeton. There was also Joseph's brother-in-law William LISTER(sic), a Wool Sorter, married, age 46, born Wakefield - perhaps LISTER should have read WIDDOP but we can't know that for sure. So I think that the only certain child we have for John WIDDOP is Elizabeth (Betty) WIDDOP later LISTER b ca 1811 in Scotland. And yes, Genuki lists Steeton as being in the parish of Kildwick. See

http//www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Kildwick/

On the supplementary page is the following"STEETON, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division and liberty of Staincliffe (Steeton Hall, the seat of William Sugden, Esq.) 2 miles NW. of Keighley, 7 from Skipton, 11 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. including Eastburn, 753 which being united, form a township. There are photos of the Steeton churches. So John WIDDOP's age of 65 in 1851 and birthplace of Steeton, certainly fits precisely with the IGI entry for John born 1786 (bap 1792) in Kildwick, parents William WIDDOP and Elizabeth. And as you said back on page 4"Eliza Lister was born in 1856, daughter of JDL and Elizabeth (Betty) Widdup. Betty Widdup's father is John Widdup and he comes from what looks to me like a reasonably clear line going back a few generations in Kildwick. We don’t know why, where or exactly when Betty was born in Scotland but I may have to live with that. Yes, a whole Kildwick line could be constructed from the IGI (no proof of course!).William WIDDOP m Ann LAYCOCK 1748. A William and Ann had Elizabeth bap 1749, Ann bap 1753, William bap 1755, John bap 1762.William WIDDOP (the one bap 1755?) m Elizabeth MOORHOUSE 1776. A William and Elizabeth had Mary 1779, Ann 1784 (bap 5 Aug 1792) and John 1786 (also bap 5 Aug 1792) - John possibly being the father of Elizabeth (WIDDOP) LISTER. Returning to John WIDDOP, Joseph LISTER's father-in-law, there was a possibility for him in 1861 - John WIDDOP, 75, married (again no wife with him), a gardener (hmm?), born Kildwick, a lodger in the household of 33yo widow Hannah ACKROYD in Manningham. This might or might not be the right John though it looks quite likely. What would be worthwhile now? Finding John WIDDOP in the 1841 census might be interesting - with luck he might even have a wife with him! Incidentally, has the Joseph Dyson LISTER household yet been found in the 1841?Perhaps the actual 1833 marriage entry in Haworth for Joseph LISTER and Betty WIDDOP might help - though probably not. And, especially, as Valda says, writing to the lady who is doing the One Name Study on WIDDOP (many variants). She may well have a wealth of information.

Cheers,
JAP

[Valda]

31 October 05

What a fantastic (and interesting) thread! By now you may have solved "which Farnley is it?" But if not, the Farnley mentioned as in 1871 CensusP4540 ED30 F32 SN94 Dwelling 8 Play Ground, Farnley David ORMONDROYD Head M 39 Coal miner North Bierley Ellen ORMONDROYD Wife M 38 North Bierley Sargent ORMONDROYD Son 14 Stuff warehouse boy Pudsey Melissa ORMONDROYD Dau 12 Cotton factory hand Pudsey Ben ORMONDROYD Son 9 Scholar PudseyAnn ORMONDROYD Dau 6 Scholar Pudsey is definitely New Farnley, Leeds LS12. Play Ground was not far from the school which was on the corner of Lawns Lane. New Farnley itself was - actually still may be - accessed from Whitehall Road. Farnley Hall, near St Michaels Church, was owned by the Armitage family.

Regards,
Lindsay


         
31 October 05

Thanks very much Lindsay, and welcome I have heard from Bob and he is posting me some information this week, so fingers crossed. I have also heard from the family of Ellen Vipond who do not know either what happened to her father Thomas, the slater. I have said in this thread that I will sort that out at some point, and so I will. I will be back the very second I hear from Bob

Best wishes
Louise
   

      
31 October 05

Hi, I'm going off at a tangent again. I notice one or two Ormandroyds mentioned within this thread. I have the family of Samuel b. Cir 1844 and married to Ruth (Bastow). Their dau. Sarah married Henry Bland - my line. Also I have William Benn b. 1831 marrying Matty Ormandroyd in 1852. This union was recently acquired from Bob Chapple. Does anyone have a connection to these? Steeton, Kildwick and Crosshills as JAP says are all within a stones throw of each other. Before Dr Beechin's time Steeton and Kildwick were served by the same railway station. If you travel from Bradford along the Aire valley the boundary is such that you go from Bradford into Keighley then back into Bradford and then back again into Keighley .I mention all this because I was in Steeton last night. The Airedale Hospital is there and it was where Isobel Skye, my first grandchild was born at 1157 AM yesterday - 7lbs 3oz - mother and baby doing fine. See I'm learning the language already.

Best regards
Dave
   

      
31 October 05 2016

Congratulations Dave Welcome to Isobel Skye, nice to see you are pushing your family tree forward as well as back! Have you been in touch with Martin (treemaker) about your Ormandroyds? I would send him a PM if I were you, he seems to have a few of these in his tree

Regards
Louise

[Valda]

01 November 05

Dave I have finally found your family in the 1851 census, except that Fanny is not with them! Perhaps she was staying with grandparents? Harriet Greenwood abt 1849 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Haworth Yorkshire John Greenwood abt 1825 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Haworth Yorkshire Mary Ann Greenwood abt 1850 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Haworth Yorkshire Susannah Greenwood abt 1828 Bradford, Yorkshire, Wife Haworth Yorkshire Joseph Houldsworth abt 1829 Bradford, Yorkshire, Relative Haworth Yorkshire Robert Wright abt 1829 Ellel, Lancashire, Boarder Haworth Yorkshire HO107/2287824page 41Household 154

Regards
Louise
   

      
01 November 05
 
Hi, Thanks Louise, yes I think that must be the transcription that I saw earlier on the Haworth transcription that I have seen she is missing. I could not find her on Bradford 1851 perhaps she is on Keighley or Halifax.' The transcriber seems to have made a complete hash of this one. Susannah was born in Elland. Harriet was born in Haworth and Mary Ann was born in Haworth. Rachel Holdsworth (without the 'u') widowed Grandmother was living in Diamond Street, Bradford in 1851. (Her son Joseph is also there, like the Benns they manage to be in two places at once)The other Grandparents - Greenwoods of Bridge House, Haworth - may have recognised Fanny, they are supposed to have built an house for their illegitimate son and his wife. Also there were other Blands in Haworth and near-bye Stanbury in 1851 and I think Susan Bland b. 1786 was still alive. (John b. 1825 was the son of John Greenwood and Susan Bland). Anyway thanks again. Did you get your data from Bob Chapple?

Best wishes
Dave
         
   
      
01 November 05

Dear Al lI have heard from Bob today He has sent me the 1841 census entry that we have all been eagerly awaiting. Census 1841HO.107/12922/2 p12Brown Royd Hill, North Bierley Mary Benn  45Elizabeth Benn20 Stuff weaver Mary Benn15 Stuff weaver Margaret Benn 8 Samuel Benn 7 Joshua Benn 4 Also at Brown Royd Hill, but at another address was a Jonas Benn aged 40, also a stuff weaver. So, father William is either dead or elsewhere. He also identified another family, based in Slackside, father William Benn aged 30 a coalminer, mother Elizabeth aged 30, stuff weaver, children John 9 a coalminer (!!) Rose 6, Squire 2 and Joshua, 65. Same reference as above but page 9.He also identified an entry for Zillah Benn, aged 8, in Northowram with Thomas and Mary Holdsworth aged 70 and James Holdsworth aged 55. This entry raises more questions than it answers though. The other item in the mail was a “family group sheet” that shows the putative family and in there Zillah, as previously recorded in this thread, was born in 1820 in Chatt Hill and married Charles Worsnop in 1841. Therefore she could not have been 8 in 1841. This must mean that there were at least two women called Zillah Benn which rather throws the whole thing up in the air. There is no indication as to where the information has come from – it is the information that we have already seen - 6 children, father William Benn, mother Mary Unknown, and marriage details where appropriate.

I would imagine that a GOONer would perhaps order all certificates in the surname of their interest and then construct relationships that way, would they? I will ask him, but he might not remember. I wonder if he used the IGI entries we saw too? New detail According to the sheet Margaret married Isaac Kellett 19th Feb 1849 in St Peter's Bradford. She was living at 26 Beldon Hill, Horton in 1851 and Nursery Houses, Gildersome in 1881 Elizabeth and James Isherwood were living at 69 Southgate, Horton in 1851 apparently. I had wondered though if she was instead the wife of Edward Dean and living in Spotland, Rochdale in 1851 with brother Samuel Benn. Zillah Worsnop was apparently at 12 Arcadia Street, Manningham in 1861 (I would have turned down Charles rather than be named Zillah Worsnop!) Mary Benn married John Hartley but there are no addresses given so I think that must mean they have not been tracked on the census. Samuel is identified at the following addresses1841 Brown Royd Hill, Wibsey1853 Mechanic, Horton (marriage to Elizabeth Jowett)1855 Iron Works Labourer, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley (birth of a child I assume)1861 Stuff Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley1871, Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley Joshua Benn appears only in the 1841 census entry and we are given no other information about him. What do we make of any of this information?

Very best wishes
Louise

[Valda]

01 November 05

I don't perceive any issue with there being more than one Zillah Benn and knowing West Yorkshire Benns even more likely, more than two.e.g.1851 HO107 2311 folio 348Slave Row Clayton Yorkshire Hannah Benn 66 Thornton, Yorkshire, Head Widow Washer David Benn 23 Clayton, Yorkshire, Son Power loom weaver Zilla Benn abt 1834 Clayton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Clayton Rover At £7.50 a time for certificates I might expect a wealthy 'Gooner' who had no other interests such as holidays to purchase all the necessary Benn certificates (a one namer is not locative remember - to be a member of the Goons he must be willingly to research the surname on a worldwide basis) and construct family relationships. FreeBMD which of course is incomplete and only covers England and Wales and only at the most goes up to circa 1910 currently holds 6,480 Benn registrations. So how much he has purchased any certificates...? I would however have expected (depending on how long he had been a one namer) for him to have searched the most relevant parish registers - in this case probably at least Bradford's (don't know how many Anglican churches let alone non-conformist) marriage registers which might have picked up Elizabeth, Margaret and Zillah's marriages but not Mary's? In which case he would have dates and detail. He would be clear where his information came from. I personally do not make family charts based on submitted information to the IGI.

The only birth certificate which would be possible to get is one for Joshua who hangs rather tantalising just as a possibility for a late birth in 1837 (which even so still might not have been registered)and is probably more likely to have occurred in 1836.I thought you had decided your Samuel in Rochdale was the 1841 census not the 1851? Margaret Kellett shows on all the censuses except 1861, 1851-1891. She is also remarkably consistent for a Benn on her age, birth year circa 1832 and place of birth, Shelf twice Wibsey once, until the genes out in 1891 when she gives Denholme. Zillah gives her birthplace as Thorton on the 1851 census circa 1821I can't see any possible Mary Hartleys. The evidence for William being the missing head of household in 1841 I would surmise rests on Margaret's and Samuel's marriages and possibly Elizabeth's baptism, and I would hope the elimination of other family group possibilities? It might also be through the marriages of Elizabeth and Zillah but no definite reference is given for these marriages. From those marriages there should be details of William's occupation and whether there was mention on any that he was deceased to help narrow down the possibilities for his death/burial.

Regards
Valda
      

   
02 November 05

I've been looking at David Benns on IGI to try and put some bones into the file I got from Bob - not much in the way of source detail. There are 11 entries for Davids in Yorks. Not many so I had a look at all of them DB 1791 Halifax to Abraham + Grace – mine DB 1820 Shelf to Benjamin + Mary – mine DB 1831 Bradford to Ann Rawnsley DB 1811 Brighouse to George + Alice David Holdsworth Benn 1826 Thornton to John + Martha (is this the 1851 David from Valda's notes above? did his father marry twice?)DB 1804 Bradford to John DB 1804 Bradford to John + Betty (LDS)DB 1811 marriage to Hannah Ashworth – mine The others are repetitions for births or baptisms. Might help for elimination purposes. One other point from Louise's addresses for Samuel - I note that the occupations are mechanic, Iron works labourer, stuff worsted weaver, worsted weaver. I might be sticking my neck out here but I get the feeling that at least the last 2 are referring to a different Samuel!!

Dave

PS just had another thought, should have spotted it earlier. David Holdsworth Benn would have enumerated as David Holdsworth and likewise any other Holdsworth Benn's!!!!