NSW birth - Pamela TATE

[majm]

Hi there,

May I presume you have previously eliminated:

Lt. H. TATE aged 30, (RNR) his wife (Mrs E Tate) aged 32 and Miss Tate, an infant aged 2 on the KASHGAR into London in June 1916.  Last permanent residence, Gilbraltar.  The ship had commenced that voyage in Sydney NSW, Australia, and I think that TATE family boarded at Gilbraltar.   

Cheers,  JM

[cando]

Yes I saw that JM but as they boarded in Gilbratar perhaps the country where the voyage commenced is irrelevant. 

Mrs E aged 32 was born c1884 and Pamela's mother, Dorothy Eleana was born c1891.

The infant's name is difficult to read  Miss May or Amy perhaps.

I read her husband's name as Lt Thos H.

I don't think it is them.

[paulineeldridge]

Hi there. I have the marriage certificate back from the GRO. It shows that the second marriage was of Dorothy Eleanor Tate to Cecil Clive Petley. The marriage took place on Oct 16 1919, so we now know that she returned to the UK between Pamela's birth in 1913 and 1919. I have also learned that Pamela was also sometimes called Dot. On the marriage certificate Dorothy is described as a widow so perhaps Capt Richard Henry Tate died in Australia between 1913 and 1919.

The marriage took place in Deal in Kent. Dorothy's father's name is Charles Randall (occupation Farmer) so we can assume this was her maiden name. Only just started by search but so far no luck. Her age at marriage was 26 so we are looking at a birth between 1891 (on death certificate) and 1893 (marriage certificate). I'll keep searching at this end - for her birth and travel to Australia

[majm]

Hi there,

I have checked my copies of the 1913 NSW Electoral Roll for

“Randall Dorothy”
“Randall Eleanor”
“Tate Dorothy”
“Tate Eleanor” 

…. Nothing….

If she was in NSW at that time, then perhaps she was not yet old enough to vote, or perhaps she had decided not to enrol as enrolment was not yet compulsory.   

My rolls are noted as NSW Electoral Rolls, and make no mention of Federal/Commonwealth in their headings : NSW elections 6 December 1913,  while there were Federal Elections 24 May 1913.

Have you compared the birth information on the UK passport with the information on Pamela’s various UK GRO Certs?
Have you located Dorothy as a child with her parents in the UK?   

Cheers  JM

[cando]

I can't find a Dorothy RANDALL with father Charles on the 1891 or 1901 UK census.  I can't find a TATE/RANDALL marriage on freebdm.

I am also wondering why a Welch Fusilier would be in Australia during WW1.

I did find a Dorothy RANDALL born c1890 Islington, London, on the 1891 census with mother Annie RANDALL 25 years Single  Living on own means born Clerkenwell, ?Weymouth and brother George T, 2 years, born London, Fulham.

This may be the birth
Births Mar 1890   
RANDALL Dorothy  Islington    1b/401

Of course this is speculative research

Cando

[Dundee]

Perhaps someone can check FindMyPast for any extra info on three women who travelled from the UK to Western Australia on the Ceramic in 1914.

Dorothy E., 24,  Edith, 26, and Kate, 30, all with the surname RANDALL.

On arrival at Albany in June 1914 they were described as spinsters, but there is no indication of their relationship to each other.

In September 1914 Misses E. and K. RANDALL travelled from Fremantle to Melbourne.

In March 1915 Miss  D.E. RANDALL travelled from Fremantle to Melbourne.

In April 1915 Miss D.E. RANDALL travelled from Melbourne to Fremantle.

Debra 

[majm]

Hi there,

I am concerned that perhaps the information on that passport has flaws in it regarding Pamela's birth place.... Does it read :
NSW
NS Wales   (this was a former way to write New South Wales, but has not been regularly used since it caused confusion during WWI between those born in Wales, UK and those born in New South Wales, Australia)
NSW Australia


I can see a Sydney NSW marriage in 1910 for an Eleanor D RANDELL and a Charles W SLOMAN (#11113) However, I cannot get from SLOMAN to TATE  And I can see an NSW birth for that couple, registered at Bathurst (Charles W and Aealenor D).  However, I am quite sure that various branches of the Sloman family were also located further west than Bathurst, although I am not sure if they would have been 'under canvas' in the Western Divisions of NSW.    Perhaps as Pamela was born in January, if born in Australia, then she may have been 'under canvas' when outdoors during the first few months after her birth although most western division NSW homes were well ventilated with long halls running from front to back and from side to side.    I cannot find a likely death to 1919 for that Eleanor's groom, and I have not looked for any UK enlistment for him either.  I cannot find him at the WWI nominal roll 
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/nominal_rolls/first_world_war/

Perhaps there's a kind RChatter with access to NSW BDM indexes to 1918 that can easily check for SLOMAN births to 1918?

Of course this is all very very speculative, and most likely it is simply a red herring.   If our OP were to obtain a transcript of that 1910 marriage for SLOMAN-RANDELL it would give information about the bride, her parentage, her place of birth, age, etc.


I too continue to wonder why a Welch Fusilier was anywhere in the Antipodes during WWI, and wonder why he was not at the Western Front?

MODIFIED to strike through the speculative information.   I can clearly see Mr and Mrs Charles SLOMAN on various Electoral Rolls in NSW after the UK marriage that our OP has detailed here.

Hi there. I have the marriage certificate back from the GRO. It shows that the second marriage was of Dorothy Eleanor Tate to Cecil Clive Petley. The marriage took place on Oct 16 1919, so we now know that she returned to the UK between Pamela's birth in 1913 and 1919. I have also learned that Pamela was also sometimes called Dot. On the marriage certificate Dorothy is described as a widow so perhaps Capt Richard Henry Tate died in Australia between 1913 and 1919.

The marriage took place in Deal in Kent. Dorothy's father's name is Charles Randall (occupation Farmer) so we can assume this was her maiden name. Only just started by search but so far no luck. Her age at marriage was 26 so we are looking at a birth between 1891 (on death certificate) and 1893 (marriage certificate). I'll keep searching at this end - for her birth and travel to Australia

Cheers,  JM   
 

[majm]

I have modified my post (reply # 51) to strike through the information about the 1910 marriage indexed at NSW BDM online.  I can clearly find NSW electoral roll information that eliminates that speculative post.

Cheers,  JM

[paulineeldridge]

Place of birth in the passport reads New South Wales, Australia. The accuracy of this may be doubtful though since my friend says his mother did not have a birth certificate.

The travel of Miss D.E Randall to Australia in 1914 sounds a promising lead though - certainly the initials and the date are about right. Perhaps she married Richard Henry Tate in Australia. Pamela would never have known her father so his occupation might have been anecdotal. Perhaps he had already left the army?