Gillespie & Duncan marriage - Gorbals

[Forfarian]

my grandfather, John Duncan Gillespie, son of Mary(nee Duncan) Gillespie states
on his death cert that his mother's last name was HARKNESS.
this mystery goes round and round. Any more thoughts???

Yes. Obviously if John Duncan Gillespie was dead, it was not he who said his mother's last name was Harkness. Who was the informant who registered his death?

[ourfamilylines]

I would assume it was his wife, Helen McGee (Rowan) Gillespie. But where on earth would she
have gotten that name fro for him?

Still trying to figure out how John Edward Harkus of Newcastle, b 1864 to Mary Poole and Robert Harkus, would call my ggrandmother Mary Duncan, "sister". Mary Duncan's mother is listed as Mary Duncan on her Lanarkshire 1882 marriage cert. However, a Mary Duncan b. at 1844 in Scotland marries Robert Harkus of Newcastle on 1868 and Robert's son John Edward has already been born and referrs to his step mothers previous child as sister? Gosh my head is swimming.

[ourfamilylines]

Using only ancestry.com and family search IgI, I have tried every combination of:
Mary Harkus and John Duncan having a child, Mary in Scotland and / or England
Mary Duncan and Harkus/Harkness using the same.

I come up with nothing. There is a link here but can't seem to grab it. If the 1871 census for West Lothian is correct and John Duncan and Helen Anderson have a granddaughter b. 1862 in England living with them, then it might all add up in a round about way. How do I find out the parents names of this grandchild??

[Forfarian]

Using only ancestry.com and family search IgI, I have tried every combination of:
Mary Harkus and John Duncan having a child, Mary in Scotland and / or England
Mary Duncan and Harkus/Harkness using the same.
I come up with nothing. There is a link here but can't seem to grab it. If the 1871 census for West Lothian is correct and John Duncan and Helen Anderson have a granddaughter b. 1862 in England living with them, then it might all add up in a round about way. How do I find out the parents names of this grandchild??

Neither Ancestry nor FamilySearch is anything like comprehensive or definitive for births in England. FreeBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ is much better, but does not tell you parents' names because it is a transcription of the official index, and this information is not included in the official index.

Have you got the 1868 marriage certificate of Robert Harkus and Mary Duncan yet? If not, then I suggest that it might be useful. FreeBMD will tell you how to go about getting a copy. I don't see any problem with stepbrother and stepsister addressing each other as 'sister' and 'brother' - it is quite possible that the combined family was a happy and harmonious one and that all the children regarded themselves as such.

I am puzzled that you seem to have John Duncan Gillespie's death certificate, but you 'assume' that the informant was his wife. The informant's name and relationship to the deceased is on the certificate - it is never safe to 'assume' anything in family history.

[ourfamilylines]

Yes, I understand it is an assumption, however at the time of my grandfather's death his only living relatives were my 31 yr old father and my grandmother in Calif. The rest of the family was in Ontario, CA.


I've looked at the 1911 enlish census and Robert Harkus's wife Mary Duncan is entered as having been born in Dundee. So I'm trying to figure if this Mary is indeed my gggrandmother and the mother of my ggrandmother Mary Duncan who states she was born in Bo'ness and may be the "grandaughter listed as having been born in England and now resides with her grandparents John Moffatt Duncan and Helen Anderson at the 1871 Scottish census.

Mary is born in 1862/1863. Then maybe in 1868 her mother, a domestic servant, marries Robert Harkus who is widowed in Newcastle with a son John Edward Harkus b. 1868 to Mary Hanna Poole, and leaves her daughter behind? oh gosh my head is spinning again.

[ourfamilylines]

YAY!!! I just received England marriage cert for Robert S Harkus and Mary Duncan. Her father is John Duncan, a gardener. Mary had a daughter also named Mary Duncan in 1862/1863. It appears she married Robert Harkus in 1868 and (1) became John Edward Harkus stepmother, (2) left her daughter Mary Duncan with her parents in Carriden, West Lothian, as John Duncan and Helen Anderson in 1871 census have a grandaughter Mary Duncan 8 yrs old born in Enland living with them. This younger Mary Duncan (father still unknown) marries James Gillespie 1882 in Glasgow, moves to Falkirk area and abt 1908 as a widow, she and her grown children and spouses immigrate to Ontario. One of her children is my grandfather, John Duncan Gillespie who dies in Los Angeles in 1951. On his death cert, his wife states that John's mothers last name is HARKNESS, which not only she mistook the spelling of, but was wrong, because it was his GRANDMOTHER Mary Duncan who married the Harkus.

Also... if not stated earlier by me, Edward Harkus writes to Mary (Duncan) Gillespie in Canada in 1911 and address's her as sister and he mentions Carriden, Scotland. Sooo I think this is all proof that my illegitimate ggrandmother, Mary Duncan, daughter of Mary Duncan who marries Robert Harkus is indeed truth. Whew! Thanks for letting me explain that. I sure hope others who have questions about this family will see this so I don't have to repeat myself!
*Gayle*

[UNDERTAKER]

Yay. Well done Gayle.


T.