SHAW WOOD TAYLOR JOYNSON THORPE GOMERSALL KELSEY WELLS GARNER RINGROSE CARAFFA/I

[RONTAYLOR121]

I’m trying to find my grandfathers true identity.

1881 Census at Leeds, Yorkshire, England UK
William SHAW and Annie Eliza Shaw (nee BREWSTER).
Children :-
George 20 born Hull,
Margaret 16 b. Bradford,
Harriet E. 13 b. Leeds,
Mary Eliza 10 b. Leeds,
Susannah 5 b. Leeds,
Eliza Ann 2 b. Leeds.

Eliza Ann Shaw (age 2 above) was my grandmother, but I can not find the true identity of my grandfather due to a family secret that goes back to the late 1800’s or early 1900’s.

A “William WOOD” (born 1800’s) was connected to the Shaw family,
some of his children :- William Henry, Arthur, Herbert and Florrie Wood.

The following names may be connected :-
BREWSTER, SHAW, WOOD, GOMERSALL, KELSEY, WELLS, GARNER, JOYNSON, THORPE, RINGROSE, ROTHSCHILD, LISTER, TAYLOR, THOMPSON, TURNER, CARAFFI, CARAFFA, KINGSMAN, ANNABLE, KNIGHT.

Any information much appreciated, however small.

Thanks – Ron

[Carolyn Gomersall]

Dear Ron,
My name is Carolyn Gomersall and I live in Western Australia.  The reason I am contacting you is that my husband's name is Andrew Kelsey Gomersall. He was born in Maidstone, Kent, England.  His Father's name was Frank Kelsey Gomersall and as far as I can gather, the Gomersall's came from Yorkshire.  When I saw Gomersall and Kelsey, I thought I'd contact you in case I can be of any help.  Andrew's father was very abrupt (in 1978/79, when he was visiting us in Australia) when I quizzed him about his family tree!  He has since passed away in 1984, so information is scarce from the Gomersall line.
Kind regards
Carolyn Gomersall

[RONTAYLOR121]

Carolyn,
I’ll explain why I listed the names Gomesall and Kelsey, amongst the other names.
As far as I know, Mary Eliza Shaw was born c.1871 in Leeds Yorkshire, I think she was married three times to a Gomersall, a Kelsey and a Wells, I’m not sure if that was the correct order of marriages.
Mary Gomersall had Fred & Lilian, may be others.
Mary Kelsey had a son Jack, may be others.
Mary Wells had Earle & Wilfred, may be others.
I don’t  know if there is a connection with your husband Andrew, may be he can make an ancestral connection.
Best Wishes
Ron (Cumbria, England UK)

For anyone else reading this posting, I repeat my original posting :-
I’m trying to find my grandfathers true identity.

1881 Census at Leeds, Yorkshire, England UK
William SHAW and Annie Eliza Shaw (nee BREWSTER).
Children :-
George 20 born Hull,
Margaret 16 b. Bradford,
Harriet E. 13 b. Leeds,
Mary Eliza 10 b. Leeds,
Susannah 5 b. Leeds,
Eliza Ann 2 b. Leeds.

Eliza Ann Shaw (age 2 above) was my grandmother, but I can not find the true identity of my grandfather due to a family secret that goes back to the late 1800’s or early 1900’s.

A “William WOOD” (born 1800’s) was connected to the Shaw family,
some of his children :- William Henry, Arthur, Herbert and Florrie Wood.

The following names may be connected :-
BREWSTER, SHAW, WOOD, GOMERSALL, KELSEY, WELLS, GARNER, JOYNSON, THORPE, RINGROSE, ROTHSCHILD, LISTER, TAYLOR, THOMPSON, TURNER, CARAFFI, CARAFFA, KINGSMAN, ANNABLE, KNIGHT.

Any information much appreciated, however small.

Thanks – Ron

[JDG]

Hello Ron,

Re: CARAFFI, CARAFFA,

These two names looked Italian to me so I visited
http://gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

Insert the names (one at a time) into the search box on the
left hand side and it produces a map of Italy where the name occurs.
As I though the names do occur in Italy.

Whereabouts in England did these two names appear?

You may also be interested in the Anglo Italian FHS
http://www.anglo-italianfhs.org.uk

There is also a migrants section on Rootschat which might be of interest, and an Anglo Italian mailing list (details via the AIFHS web page)

[RONTAYLOR121]

Hi Julie

Thanks for the information,

Although I knew my grandfather, I don't know his birth name, place or country of birth, birth date or year.
I don't have any positive information about my grandfather before the year 1905, he was probably born between 1865 and 1885.
Family tales say that my grandfather was probably born in London England UK and that when he was young he ran away and lived with an Italian family in Italy, he may have changed his name to Caraffi whilst in Italy, I don’t know if any of this is true.
The first fact that I know about my grandfather is that in 1905 he was a Street Musician living in Leeds, England with his partner (my grandmother) Eliza Ann SHAW, they were using the names Luigi Caraffi and Eliza Ann Caraffi.
I've been told that granddad was either a Clerk or a Piano Tuner before he was a Street Musician.
By the time my father was born at Skipton, England in 1913, my grandparents were using the names John and Eliza Taylor.
Family tales says that Luigi Caraffi and John Taylor were the same person, although this may not be true.
My grandparents used the names John and Eliza Taylor until their deaths at Yiewsley, West Drayton, England in 1961 and 1953, it’s been said that granddad went to Italy on a number of occasions, I don’t know what name he used whilst out of England.
Between 1905 and 1909 whilst using the names Luigi and Eliza Caraffi, I know that my grandparents had at least three children in the Leeds area :- Eliza Ann Caraffi b.1905 d.1906, Rosina Caraffi b.1907 and Charles Caraffi b.1909 d.1910.
After 1910 my grandparents had at least five children with the surname TAYLOR (my father, my aunts and uncle). All the living descendants of my grandparents that I know, can not tell me anything about my grandfather, as they say that they do not know anything about his true identity or what he did when he was young that caused him to run away and change his name.
I think my grandfather was probably born in London England or Italy, or maybe Leeds.
Caraffi and Caraffa were very rare names in England before 1900.
During my research I found a Rosina (Millicent) CARAFFA born at London in the 1830’s,
I think there is a possibility that she was my granddad’s mother or grandmother, due to the facts that she lived in London and that granddad named one of his children Rosina Caraffi in 1907.
Rosina Millicent Caraffa married William Long Kingsman at London in 1858, they had at least one child Rosina Emma Kingsman b.1859. William Long Kingsman d.1861.
Rosina M Kingsman (nee Caraffa) married William ANNABLE at London in 1868, they had at least one child, Florence Louise Annable b.1874, I don’t know what other children they had ?
Rosina Emma Kingsman married James KNIGHT at London in 1883, I don’t know what children they had ?
I don’t know if either of the Rosina’s re-married or had any other children, I think my granddad might be a son of Rosina Millicent or Rosina Emma.
I haven’t managed to contact any descendants of Rosina Millicent Caraffa.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

P.S.
I don’t know if the following is related to the secrecy :-
I’ve been told that my grandmother Eliza Ann Shaw had a first child named MARY SHAW,
Mary was taken away by the authorities and put in to care.
In the 1930’s Mary worked as a live in maid for a Doctor Thomas Leonard RINGROSE who worked at Leeds General Infirmary, he lived at Headingley Leeds.
Any descendants of Mary Shaw or the Ringrose family may be able to help me unravel the true identity of my grandfather ?

Thanks – Ron

[JDG]

Ron -  Have you tried to establish if a Passport was issued to your relative?
It might be worth contacting the Passport Office and seeing if they have any records.

[RONTAYLOR121]

Julie

No I have not tried to establish if a passport was issued.
I don't know what name I would ask for, my best bet would be to ask if there was one issued for Louigi/Luigi CARAFFI, as the others names that I suspect are too common.
Thanks for the idea, however, I don't know how to go about requesting such a search, do you know if it's a standard procedure that the Passport Office carry out, any advice is appreciated.

Thanks - Ron

[docwatto]

Ron

I have just joined rootschat and found this old thread by searching for Kingsman.

William Long Kingsman [b1805] was my gx3 grandfather.  he was married to Mary Ann Tyler who died in 1855.  They had nine children, many of whom enterred into the family business (Ivory turning and carving).  I have no records of him remarrying, but is it possible that this is the same William Long Kingsman as you mention as marrying Rosina Carraffi?

If you have any details that you haven't mentioned in your previous post I'd be very grateful if you could pass them on.

Many thanks

Derrick Watson

[docwatto]

Ron

I've managed to find the following information which may be of use to you.  I am certain that there is a link between your Kingsman line and mine.  I am still unsure as to whether the William Long Kingsman is the same as mine (b1805) or is one of his close relatives.

1837 Terence Henry Caraffa, marriage, Dec 1837, St George Southwark, Vol 4 Page 123 – Emma Garrett is on the same page.
1851 Emma Caroffa (age 54, married, schoolmistress, b Middx) with daughter Rosina (age 19 (?), b Middx) at 8 Bermondsey Rd. [H0107/1562/418/31].   
1851 Henry Caraffa (age 57, married, schoolmaster, b Dublin, Ireland) at 10 Fort Place, Bermondsey [H0107/1561/49/22]
1859 Henry Terence Caraffa, death, Mar 1859,Bermondsey (1837-69), Vol  1d Page 8[71]
1861 Emma Carafa (age 64, widow, b Middx) at 94 Bermondsey Rd [RG9/326/85/21]
1871 Emma Caraffa (age 72, widow, schoolmistress, b London, Strand) at 9 Smiths Gardens Bermondsey [RG10/629/12/22]


1861 William Long Kingsman (b1805) is listed as a widower, living with his children in Lambeth.  No mention of Rosina in this entry.  Wife Mary Ann {Tyler} had died in 1855.  Still working as an Ivory turner. [RG9/340/106/36]
1861 William Long Kingsman, death, Dec 1861, Newington, Vol 1d Page 183
1871 William Kingsman (age 68, lodger, widower, b Middx St Andrews) at Public Lodging House in Bryanstone Square, London [RG10/168/36/7]

1858 Rosina Millicent Carloffa, marriage, Sep 1858, Lambeth, Vol 1d Page 542 – William Long Kingsman is on the same page
1862 Frederick William Kingsman, birth, Jun 1862, Bermondsey (1837-69), Vol 1d Page 106
1868 Rosana Millicent Kingsman, marriage, Sep 1868, Bermonsey (1837-60),  Vol 1d Page 51 – William Annable is on the same page.
1871 William Annable (age 51, married, carpenter, b Chesterfield Derbyshire), wife Rosina (age 32, b Middx), “son” Frederick Kingsman (age 8, b Middx) at 275 New Kent Road, Southwark [RG10/601/97/26]
1874 Florence Louise Annable, birth, Mar 1874, St Saviour Southwark,  Vol 1d Page 46
1879 William Annable, death aged 67, Mar 1879, Lambeth, Vol 1d Page 284
1880 Rosina Annable, death aged 44, Dec 1880, St Saviour Southwark, Vol  1d Page 28

1859 Rosina Emma Kingsman, birth, Sep 1859, Newington, Vol 1d Page 225
1871 Rose Kingsman (age 10, niece, b Lambeth, Surrey) staying with Richard James Kingsman at 189 Newington Butts, Lambeth [RG10/621/105/11] - Richard James is nephew to William Long Kingsman (b1805)
1881 Rose E Kingsman (age 21, visitor, unmarried, envelope folder (?), b Bermondsey) staying at 176 Westmoreland Road, Newington with the family of James Knight. [RG11/0542/28/11]
1883 Rosina Kingsman, marriage, Dec 1883, St Saviour Southwark,  Vol 1d Page 360 – James Knight is on the same page.

I have not found an 1861 census entry for either of the Rosinas under any name variant that I can think off, and I also have not found a birth record for Rosina senior, although she may predate registration.

If you have already got a copy of the Caraffa-Kingsman marriage certificate, could you please let me know what details it has for William (age, profession, father's name) as that will tie it down precisely to my tree.

Regards

Derrick