Look Up Request Melbourne

[Yorkslady]

Many thanks to everyone for all for your help. Stupidly I failed to mention Eliza had been married before to John Stallard and would possibly have been married as Eliza Stallard not Eckhardt, but I am not convinced Joe & Eliza ever did marry.

First daughter Birth Certificate
Susannah Myers
registered 30th July 1858 Melbourne
Born Eleventh July 1858 4 Off Queensbury Street, North Melbourne,
Father Joseph Myers age 25 born England,  Cab Driver
Married 1857 Melbourne
Mother Eliza Myers formerly Echard age 24 born Sydney

Second daughter Birth Certificate
Sarah Jane Myers
Registered 16th July 1860 Inglewood
Born 22nd June 1860 Inglewood
Father Joseph Myers  age 27 Cab Proprietor born Leeds, Yorkshire
Married July 4th 1857 Melbourne
Mother Eliza Myers formerly Eckhartd age 29 born Sidney (as recorded)

There appears to have also been a son

Joseph James Myers b. abt 1863 possibly Australia or New Zealand
He died 16th March 1876 age 13

A newspaper report states
Myers.- On the 16th of March, at the residence of D.Ross, Broadway, Reefton, after a long and painful illness, Joseph James Myers, (the youngest son of Mrs Cato.)

Death registration
Registration Number   Family Name   Given Name(s)        Date of Birth/Age at Death   
1876/4834            Myers       Joseph James                13Y-    New Zealand


Eliza also married Peter Cato (possibly called Peter Thomas Cato) in New Zealand 1869
1869/6654 Eliza Stallard  Peter Cato

Eliza had 3 children to John Stallard
Maltravers Paul Stallard b. abt 1848
Maria Stallard b. 1850 Adelaide married Donald Ross 03 Mar 1866 Hokitika, Westland, New Zealand
Helen/Ellen Stallard b. 1853 Sydney married John Dick 29 May 1870 St John's Church, Westport, New Zealand

Joseph Myers snr, Paul Stallard & John Dick travelled to New Zealand together in 1862
Family Name Given Name Age  Ship Name Month Year  Destination Film_Mth Film_Yr Page
MYERS            JOSEPH 28  NORWESTER SEP 1862  PORT CHALMERS SEP 1862    010
STALLARD       PAUL    20   NORWESTER SEP 1862  PORT CHALMERS SEP 1862    011 (wrong age?)
DICK              JOHN    25   NORWESTER  SEP 1862  PORT CHALMERS SEP 1862   

I have lots of information about the family in New Zealand found at Papers Past

Joseph appears to have returned to Inglewood, Victoria Australia and got himself into trouble over a cab fare, when there was an argument about payment and he assaulted a woman. He was jailed for 6 weeks. See The Argus (Melbourne, Vic) Monday 13 Dec 1875, page 6 Trove Newspaper archives. (Several other newspaper clips to be found about this incident)

I am convinced this is my relative Joseph Myers who returned to England
Family Name Given Name Age  Ship Name Month Year  Destination Film_Mth Film_Yr Page
MYERS JOSEPH                  44    KENT        AUG     1877 LONDON             AUG 1877 009

Joseph returned to being a Butcher in Leeds and married Rachel Senior in 1879. He had emmigrated to Australia with his brother Samuel in 1853 on the Earl of Charlemont, and was shipwrecked on arrival at Barwon Heads, Victoria. Lots of information found on this incident.
I believe his brother Sam might have died in Australia about 1874. His mothers name was Susannah and his sister Sarah Jane!

Just to note  John Dick and Paul/Thomas Cato appear to have been butchers too.

I was hoping to find a marriage certificate to confirm the connection of my Joseph Myers to Eliza and her family - I am sure they are the same!

[Yorkslady]

Following on from before, If the John Stallard who died in 1869 NSW was Eliza's husband, she would have then been free to marry Peter Cato the same year! Joseph states he was a batchelor on his marriage certificate to Rachel Senior.

Also in reply about the marriages of Joseph & Eliza's daughters & Eliza (All in New Zealand)

https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz  MARRIAGES
Registration NumberBride's GivenName(s)Bride's FamilyName Groom's Given Name(s) Groom's Family Name

1869/6654                          Eliza Stallard                                    Peter Cato

1876/1356                          Susannah Myers                              Robert Whitten 

1879/3121                        Sarah Jane Cato Myers                      John Anslie Montgomerie

Note Sarah Jane has added Cato to her name

[majm]

Joseph Myers married Eliza Ekhardt in Melbourne on 04 Jul 1857, according to their daughters birth certificate. I have not been able to find this marriage on Ancestry.co or The Victorian Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriage. Are all Victoria BMD registers actually on line or are some missing. Could anyone look up this date in the Melbourne registers for me please? (Eckhardt/Ekhart/... etc many possible spellings of this name) I suspect they never did marry.
Many thanks

Hi there,

So you are basically trying to find a marriage registered in Victoria for a Joseph MYERS and Eliza STALLARD, nee Eckhardt, hopefully with the marriage dating from 4 July 1857, and with Melbourne as the place.

I am not that familiar with Victoria BDM records or the various Indexes available for those records.   But I do know that the NSW BDM online index does NOT give you the day/month option within the YEAR, while the Qld BDM online index does give you the option to drill down to the exact day/month within the YEAR.

I am also aware that NSW BDM online index has its own flaws, and I recall reading other RChat threads indicating that Vic BDM indexes can also have flaws.   Sometimes these flaws are simply because the registration details for various BDM events did not reach the BDM Registrar General’s Head Office.  It is also important to remember that before the introduction of the typewriter, the entries into the various ledgers were all handwritten, and thus subject to the variations in handwriting by the various clerks, both at the local (deputy) registrar’s and at the Registrar General’s offices. 

Have you sought contact with the Synagogue/s in Melbourne in the 1850s …..  I wonder if the surnames MYERS and ECKHARDT would be suggesting a Jewish marriage for Joseph to Eliza ?
 
Re your concerns about the validity of these marriages:

Several threads on Rchat including this long thread regarding marriages in various colonies in Australia in these decades eg  

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,596662.0.html  .....   


Cheers,  JM  (NSW Centric, so not too familiar with how the Vic BDM index works, but I cannot get it to sort by day/month/year)

[Yorkslady]

Many thanks for the information. I know Joseph was definately not Jewish, even though coincidently, he was reputed to be the first Kosha butcher in Leeds. I have been into the probability of him being a Kosha butcher as a Christian and have been assured it is quite possible. He had a butchers shop near where the Leeds Jewish community lived at that time. I have his baptism records and that of his parents, grandparents and great grandparents. As Eliza gave only limited information about their marriage when registering their first daughter, I wonder if she went prepared with a date of marriage when registering their seacond daughters birth, trying to keep things looking respectable!

[majm]

Many thanks for the information. I know Joseph was definately not Jewish, even though coincidently, he was reputed to be the first Kosha butcher in Leeds. I have been into the probability of him being a Kosha butcher as a Christian and have been assured it is quite possible. He had a butchers shop near where the Leeds Jewish community lived at that time. I have his baptism records and that of his parents, grandparents and great grandparents. As Eliza gave only limited information about their marriage when registering their first daughter, I wonder if she went prepared with a date of marriage when registering their seacond daughters birth, trying to keep things looking respectable!

I was actually thinking that it may have been possible that Eliza had a Hebrew heritage? 

I am concerned that you suspect Eliza's motives in the different depths of detail provided on the two Vic BDM certs. 
 
I can see on the online INDEX that a Susannah MYERS birth was registered in 1858 as at North Melbourne with parents as Joseph Myers and Eliza Echord.  (#10070) 

I can see Sarah Jane MYERS birth registered in 1860 as at Inglewood, with parents as Joseph Myers and Eliza Ekhartd.  (#16997)   

Is the surname STALLARD mentioned anywhere on either of those Vic Birth Certs?   

Are there any other older siblings noted on either of those Vic Birth Certs?

Is Eliza listed as the informant on BOTH these certs?   

I think you will find that the Registrar's questioning when registering any birth was in that era a VERBAL question, and thus if Eliza was the informant on both those birth registrations, she was simply giving VERBAL responses to the questioning.   I would not anticipate that any difference between info given verbally in 1858 and again in 1860 should give you reason to draw the conclusion that there was an attempt to keep things looking respectable.   The population of Victoria was very much of a transient nature, due in the most part to gold seekers. 

I can see several entries for various Joseph MYERS in one of the Melbourne Directories just for 1859, and without considering the variations in the spelling of that surname.

  cab proprietor, Burn' s lane , Lonsdale Street, west
  outfitter, &c., 73 Elizabeth street and his private residence was at 113 Little Lonsdale Street, west.

Cheers,  JM

[andycand]

Hi Yorkslady

On another topic you suggest that John Stallard may have died in Dubbo in 1869, if that was Eliza's first husband then, unless there was a divorce, she couldn't have married Joseph Myers without committing bigamy. I have come across a number of examples in Scotland where date and place of parents marriage is on a childs birth registration and no marriage can be found. I suspect that a fib was told at registration.

Andy

[majm]

The  1869 dc for John STALLARD…..  This is a civil registration, and although the online index does NOT display the given names for his parents, it does show he was aged 60, which suggests to me that the informant knew some of his information.   So IF Eliza (Mrs Joseph MYERS) had been married to this chap, then her details and the children of that marriage OUGHT to be detailed on that dc. 

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/familyHistoryCertificates.htm

NSW BDM death certs for that 1860s-1870s era include the following information

The section provided by the Informant  providing the family history information (so this section is relying on the informant’s own knowledge of the deceased, and is usually provided by the person who identifies the deceased)
His full name, his usual occupation, his usual residence, his marital status
IF married, then where married, age when married and his wife’s full name (including nee/former surname)
His children (names and then ages, in chronological order
Then there is the section provided by the medicos (cause of death, duration of illness)
Then there is the section provided by the funeral director (place of burial, etc).   This info would give clues to help finding the cemetery, and then to help with a search of that cemetery’s graves for either additional burial information or for headstone MI which may include references to Eliza, and thus it may be possible to confirm or eliminate the Eliza who married (formally or informally) to Yorkslady’s Joseph MYERS. 

Info re Colonial Divorces
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html     This very informative paper gives lots of information, and is fully referenced.    I have cited that link on quite a number of occasions at RChat, including in the various links within the link I posted at reply 11 of this thread.  Divorce Laws were introduced to Victoria in 1861, and in New South Wales in 1873.   

Are all Victoria BMD registers actually on line or are some missing. Could anyone look up this date in the Melbourne registers for me please?

    As the NSW BDM online index definitely contains ONLY some (many) of the marriages recorded in the parish registers then it also stands to reason that the VIC BDM may also have similar flaws.   

Cheers,  JM

 

[mum mum]

Hi
I think it was not uncommon for couples who were not legally married to give a date and place of marriage on their childrens birth certificates, perhaps it was the date that they began lliving together.
My G Grandparents gave a date and place of marriage but did not get married for another 37 years, after the children were grown up.

mum mum

[majm]

I have similar experience mum mum    Several couples married ONLY after many years together, and only after lots of grandchildren had already arrived, and only when they needed to organise their OAP .... despite years on the Electoral Roll under the surname for the husband ! 

However, I also have spent time with an Archivist for a particular NSW Parish, and we discovered some parish registers from the years just prior to the establishment of the NSW BDM Registrar General's Office, and there are some 800 marriages in that one parish that are NOT yet indexed at the NSW BDM.   The Archivist is now in contact with NSW BDM.  I am also aware of various other elusive parish registers, with marriages, baptisms and burials in various locations throughout NSW that contain records of burials that are definitely NOT indexed at NSW BDM, again from the middle decades of the 19th Century.   

There's also the possibility that Mrs Eliza Stallard was widowed prior to meeting Joseph Myers.  And if her husband John Stallard died in a rural area of NSW, and a Police Enquiry was considered, then the Police may well have ordered a burial prior to any enquiry being conducted.  As the funeral director would therefore have the authority to bury, BUT not the information as to the 'cause of death' it is likely the funeral director was not expected to completed the necessary paperwork to register a death.  This of course means that a death certificate would not be available to be indexed by NSW BDM.   This was not an uncommon situation in rural NSW from the commencement of civil registrations (1856) until around WWI when the practices for registering deaths became more formalised.   I do NOT know if similar situations existed in any of the other British Colonies either within Australia or overseas (eg New Zealand, where apparently some of Joseph's children settled).

I am not as familiar with the regulations for Victoria as I am with the actual practices for NSW registrations of BDM events, particular post civil registrations.  (Some of my rellies were NSW civil servants, others were C of E clergy, and I have various private papers including their diaries and correspondences).

I find it interesting that in the 1810s in NSW and later, there were in fact government general orders encouraging people to marry rather than co-habitate, even though they already had living spouse located in other colonies or back in the 'Home Counties".  The English Laws re marriage were not governing NSW marriages conducted post 1823, which is when the then Chief Justice of the NSW Supreme Court (Sir Francis Forbes) determined that English Law had no effect in the colonies UNLESS it specifically nominated each colony in which it was to have effect, and thus over-ride the colonial legislatures own duly constituted laws.   The colonial clergy expressed concerns about this anomaly for decades.  There were no patrolling "bigamy policemen" going house to house seeking out men or women who were not lawfully married to then charge these people.   

Cheers,  JM