Author Topic: A brick wall with Mary and John  (Read 7126 times)

Offline crab2

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 28 June 12 01:50 BST (UK) »
sorry to squash the shipping record mentioned previously but there are John White's arriving in 1962, 1963 and one in January 1964, when you know what it says on the ITM let us know and we'll have another look

Offline familysleuth

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 05 July 12 09:14 BST (UK) »
Thanks everyone - I did request the ITM's for Mary and John, and also these records for a couple of other ancestors  I needed to check. What I DID find was that the 'Residence' column was interpreted differently by various offices/officials - another person assisting me confirmed that apparently  no guidelines were given out with the forms so local officials made their own interpretation of what was meant … ie, whether this meant time in NZ or time in that place.... specifically that Parish.

So, Beg, your example may not be an error at all.... on one of the ITM's that I requested I found that my ancestor, Rosina, put down a residence of 3 years and I knew she had been in NZ for 17 years. However I was able to track her place of residence and 3 years prior to her new marriage, she moved from Oamaru to Dunedin, lending weight to the fact that at that time, in Dunedin, they were interpreting residence as 'residence in that parish'.

However the ITM remains a great resource,  and can obviously add weight to other facts or suppositions. I also found that ordering it from Archway was easy and  swift, although it cost money!.

Back to Mary and John - for residence John (aged 23)  put 6 months, and Mary 5 months with 'no one to give consent' - aged 18 at the time. I would say my feeling is that they were new immigrants to NZ. With this age for John the John White who was 31 and came from Australia in 1864 may not be my man. John's  age on the ITM is in conflict with his death certificate stating that he was 82 years old in 1916 (which is not unusual, conflicts at the death certificate stage). so as for ship..... back to the drawing board! I notice that there are a number of ships to Port Chalmers in the early part of 1865 and there are apparently  no passenger lists for them....*sigh*
Joyce & Black in Armagh/Down; Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

Offline crab2

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 05 July 12 09:27 BST (UK) »
this site has alot of Port Chalmers passengers list but the search part of it doesn't work so use the 2nd link I put in for it and remove the word Wilson in the address bar and put in White

http://www.yesteryears.co.nz/


https://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.yesteryears.co.nz+wilson&oq=site%3Awww.yesteryears.co.nz+wilson&aq=f&aqi=&aql=f&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2766l3813l0l7l7l0l6l0l0l94l94l1l1

Offline familysleuth

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 05 July 12 11:03 BST (UK) »
a quick search reveals nothing for a John White, White or J White of the right year......or of a Nellen, naylon, Nailon, Nellon or Nellin.

 I am really pleased you gave me the link though... I do know that site but when I attempt to use the search facility it just doesn't work for me, google seems to block it and I can only search by ship name. Now I know how to get round it!!

I'll keep searching - I have sort of cross-referenced the yesteryears site with the shipstonz site to find extra passenger lists and maybe something will turn up... thanks heaps!!
Joyce & Black in Armagh/Down; Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.


Offline kiwihalfpint

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 05 July 12 11:10 BST (UK) »
Hi ya,

Spades added the other day in the Resource Section -Links to Shipping ....may or  may not help .... no harm in trying.

Sorry, the White I found wasn't your guy .... but isn't that part of genealogy, pulling the stones from the rocks?


Cheers
KHP
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Offline sandy75

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 07 July 12 04:53 BST (UK) »
Re: Your problem of tracing the ships that Mary & John traveled out to NZ may be never be found.  To Get some idea of the this major problem   You must look at the history of N Z  and what was Happening in N Z at this period..  From the 1859  until 1870 was the period of Otago / central otago/ Southland Gold Rushes  that lead from the Australian Gold rush in  1850's...In this period we fine the following.
(1) Passengers lumped in Steerage and Not Listed at all.
(2) Ships listed with no passengers
(3) Govt Officials  over come with the Number of vessels arriving and their book work suffered  in 1857 Dunedin was visited by only 149 ships  in 1860 Dn alone was visited over 382 ships and that was not counting the other minor Ports in Otago or Southland.
 I would suggest you read the following books. written by Ian Church.
Otago infant Years .. Shipping arrivals and Departures  2002 or his lecture in   A Golden Opportunity Proceedings of NZ Society of Genealogists  2011...  John R




















92
0
Robertson, Fergusson,  Scandrett,  Rodgers, Robinsons, Van Hoorn, Doubles

Offline spades

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 07 July 12 06:07 BST (UK) »
Hi Familysleuth,

From my experience of ITM's I can confirm that 'Length of Residence' usually referred to time at the individual's present location, not time in New Zealand.

In many cases one will see that 'Length of Residence' was '3 days' suggesting that the individual travelled from elsewhere to marry in the intented location.

Have you approached the Otago Settlers Museum in Dunedin? They have excellent resources for researching immigrants to Otago.

If Mary NELLEN travelled as a servant employed by a family this could explain why she might not appear in passenger lists. I believe this wasn't unusual at this time.

Another suggestion is to look at the names of their children. Occasionally names of an emigrant ship (or its captain) was given to one of the children (more often this occured if a child was born during the voyage, but it remains a possibilty).

Spades
ELLERKER - Beverley ERY ENG
HEALEY - IRL?
MURDOCH - Wigtownshire SCT, Otago and Westland NZ
PALING - Nottinghamshire ENG
RILEY - Flamborough; Cottingham; South Dalton ERY, Manitoba CAN, & London ENG
STURTON - Arnold, Nottinghamshire ENG
SUTTRON - All, NRY & DUR ENG
TAYLOR - London ENG
TYLER - London ENG
TERNAN/TIERNAN - Dublin IRL

Offline kiwihalfpint

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 07 July 12 06:14 BST (UK) »


If Mary NELLEN travelled as a servant employed by a family this could explain why she might not appear in passenger lists. I believe this wasn't unusual at this time.

Spades

Most cases, it was recorded as "travelling with servant" or "travelling with governess or nursemaid"  Sometimes families with children, paid for someone to travel with them so they could look after their children on the way out.

Cheers
KHP

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Offline familysleuth

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Re: A brick wall with Mary and John
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 08 July 12 03:52 BST (UK) »
Sandy, you are so right.... the passenger lists remain, in lots of cases, a stumbling block to finding out more about our ancestors. I have found cases in my own research where the people are not listed (even when other sources confirm a particular ship), or their names were incorrectly spelled... etc etc. I am hopeful, and not discouraged..... more time and more sources often throw up small facts which lead to fantastic information!!

The possible John White was an option.... and it could still be that he travelled from Australia. I am all too aware that travellers between Australia and NZ were even MORE likely not to appear on lists!

The Otago settlers Museum sounds like a great option and I will write to them. Names of the children give no clues, unfortunately, but from school records index I have seen that the family was resident at 'Blueskin Rd, Port Chalmers' for many years. It is possible that records of the Port Chalmers School has something on them..... about 9 of the children had some schooling there, so that is another possibility. I'll keep on chipping away, and thanks for everyone's input!!
Joyce & Black in Armagh/Down; Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.