removal of paupers to ireland

[Rekall]

Came across this file at NAS nationl Archives Scotland

AD56/255
Poor and Poor Law: removal of paupers, especially from Scotland to Ireland; papers relating to particular cases and to the Scotch and Irish pauper removals bill of 1856 and to the Poor removal bill of 1862.

i think my gggrandfather may have been sent to ireland in the 1870s but not sure without seeing
the file!

was wondering if anyone out there has this file already and would be willing to share?

[Elwyn Soutter]

Can't help you with the NAS file. However, if you know when your ancestor was removed and which Poor Law Union (PLU) in Ireland he was sent to, it can be worth looking up the Board of Guardians minutes in Ireland. (In PRONI, Belfast for Northern Ireland). Their records are pretty complete.

I have seen several where individual cases were referred to, and where they authorities in Ireland were a bit skeptical about the decision to remove the person back there. The legislation appears to have said that the destitute person could be sent back to the previous parish/PLU that they resided in, but not if they had been in the current one for 5 years or more. The 5-year rule, plus the fact that the person may also have lived in several other places in Scotland since leaving Ireland which meant they should have gone there rather than Ireland, was reportedly often “overlooked”, and they were just sent back to Ireland anyway, and with no means of making their way from the port to their original PLU which might be 150 miles away. So the Boards in Ireland often felt the person shouldn’t have been returned to Ireland at all, nor should they have been left destitute at the docks.

[Rekall]

Thanks for the information, its a bit of a stab in the dark because Michael Doyle was born in England lived most of his life in Scotland forth Lanark, i found him in the 1871 census then he turns up in ireland in 1877 married? then is 1885 one of his sons is born in edinburgh.both his parents were from Ireland could this be cause to send him there?. they were all miners so pretty poor

Thanks Rekall

[Elwyn Soutter]

If he was an adult, I don’t think his parent’s birth in Ireland would have been a reason to remove him there. In theory he should only have been removed there if that was the last place he had been living before becoming destitute in Scotland.

[RJ_Paton]

Under the Poor Law in Scotland the primary Parish was the Place of Birth, unless the claimant had gained "settlement"  by residing 5 years in another Parish without claiming relief.

The other big difference between the Poor Law operated in Scotland and that operated in England, Wales and Ireland was that in Scotland the able bodied had no right to relief regardless of how destitute they were. That said the local boards did have a discretionary power to give temporary relief but they would make sure they would claim this back from the Parish that the person was "deported" to. In the case referred to he would only have been sent to Ireland if he had lived there for 5 years or more and had thus gained settlement status.

[gaucho]

Have to disagree: my Gt Gt Grandfather, John Dunlop has this final entry in his application

'30/1/91 Warrant obtained for removal to Ballymoney Ireland. 31/1/91leaving + won’t return'

despite having lived in Glasgow for 41 years!

[RJ_Paton]

Have to disagree: my Gt Gt Grandfather, John Dunlop has this final entry in his application

'30/1/91 Warrant obtained for removal to Ballymoney Ireland. 31/1/91leaving + won’t return'

despite having lived in Glasgow for 41 years!

The Act itself stipulated the 5 years "settlement" figure and the conditions under which a person could be returned to another Parish. The actual interpretation of the Law was often disputed between different Parishes who did not wish to be a dumping ground for the Poor from another area who now had little, or sometimes no links at all, to the area in which they found themselves.

I have seen disputed settlement cases where the residency had been around 10 years but I've never seen one as long as 41 years (The cases are strikingly inhumane to read)

 In the cases I've looked at the interpretation of the Law appears to hinge upon the phrase "without claiming relief" but in many instances I believe that the authorities played a game of chicken with the claimants along the lines of - you make a claim and we'll ship you off to XXXX. In addition to this they were very strict on the residency rules and anyone who moved for work or whatever reason found they no longer qualified for settlement as the period had to be continuous in that parish

I have one case in my own lines where the family who were originally from Ireland were split up .... the parents and youngest children were sent from Rutherglen to Motherwell where they had gained settlement status but their eldest daughter aged 14 was sent back to Ireland as she had only been in the Parish for 2 years despite the splitting of families having been deemed illegal

[Rekall]

Thanks for the information.  Is there any place I could check to see if he was shipped out due to find work something else.  I have check poor law for records and  he is not listed. I know he ended up in donagal Ireland but I'm lost as were to go next.

[RJ_Paton]

If he was transferred by authorities there should be a record BUT families moved back and forward between  Scotland & Ireland on a fairly regular basis and no records were kept as they were moving in what was regarded as one country.