Toronto streets, about 1840

[T. Michael Sommers]

Cross in the post again, so I'll add this first:

Ottawa to Troy is actually overland -- Troy is in the far east of NY State, right up against Massachusetts, well away from Lake Ontario, and an odd place to go from either Toronto or the Ottawa area. When I have driven it myself, I've crossed the St Lawrence at Massena NY, then driven down the Lake Champlain waterway -- from Ottawa in the olden days, it could have been the Ottawa River to Montreal, and then down.

I actually would query whether that Ellen Lockhart in Troy had anything to do with Canada at all, just because Troy is such an odd place to end up. But apparently either she or James Crezie or both did have some connection with Toronto, from the other info you have.

There was another batch of Clazies in Putnam County, which is on the Hudson between Albany and New York.  I have always suspected that the appearance of Clezies in Troy was not unrelated to that fact.

[JaneyCanuck]

Hello, T Michael. If you read the thread and not just the opening post, that is what some of us have surmised (i.e. that William was Ellen Lockhart's father).

William Lockhart married Margaret Henderson in 1811 in Scotland.
In 1850, Margaret is with her new (apparent) spouse, James Cloyd(e) in NY state.
With them is her daughter Mary Dow, born and married in Scotland, and son Robert Lockhart, born in Canada.
Other Lockharts in the area who appear to be her children are John, Margaret and Jane.
So if Ellen was a child of that family, a sibling to the others, there was no question of eloping; she married James Clezie in Rensselaer County, NY state, simply because that was where her mother and siblings lived.

Ellen Lockhart is not yet in evidence in NY state before the marriage.
However, her two children William and Margaret are the two names that were as yet unaccounted for in James Clezie's family. The names match the couple described above.

Do read through the thread, and if you have any ideas, some of us would be very interested to hear them!

[JaneyCanuck]

there I go quoting myself instead of modifying again -- deleted

[JaneyCanuck]

There was another batch of Clazies in Putnam County, which is on the Hudson between Albany and New York.  I have always suspected that the appearance of Clezies in Troy was not unrelated to that fact.

Tell us your connection, TMS! In this particular case, there isn't really any Clezie in NY state -- just James Clezie who went there from Toronto and married Ellen Lockhart. (Whether he met her there or went there to marry her, or went there with her to marry, we don't know.) He and Ellen promptly moved back to Toronto, then elsewhere in the US.

So probably our Clezie isn't connected with the Clazeys in Putnam County, although of course they could have been related back in Scotland. 

[T. Michael Sommers]

What proof do you have that George was James' father and his mother Jane Lockie?  Marriage certificate didn't have parents - did his death certificate?

You are assuming that the passenger list for Mrs. Clazie and 3 children in 1832 are yours and that James emigrated with his parents.  Do you have any indication of his parents in Canada or the U.S.?

A number of people have been researching the Clazies (however spelt) for some time.  Nearly every Clazie found has been fit into a single family descended from a William Clasie who first appears in a baptismal record for a son dated 1670 in Berwick (see http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tms2&id=I3120).  Of course, there will be mistakes, but it is not likely that anyone of that name will pop up out of nothing.  Enough is known about the family as a whole it is relatively easy to narrow down the possibilities for a Mrs. Clazie and 3 children to the point that only one makes sense.

[T. Michael Sommers]

Hello, T Michael. If you read the thread and not just the opening post, that is what some of us have surmised (i.e. that William was Ellen Lockhart's father).

The thread is 10 pages long (now 11); if I hold off replying until I've read the whole thing, I'll never remember what I wanted to say.

William Lockhart married Margaret Henderson in 1811 in Scotland.
In 1850, Margaret is with her new (apparent) spouse, James Cloyd(e) in NY state.
With them is her daughter Mary Dow, born and married in Scotland, and son Robert Lockhart, born in Canada.
Other Lockharts in the area who appear to be her children are John, Margaret and Jane.
So if Ellen was a child of that family, a sibling to the others, there was no question of eloping; she married James Clezie in Rensselaer County, NY state, simply because that was where her mother and siblings lived.

I see no evidence that Ellen was part of this family.

Ellen Lockhart is not yet in evidence in NY state before the marriage.

Precisely.

However, her two children William and Margaret are the two names that were as yet unaccounted for in James Clezie's family. The names match the couple described above.

We, or at least I, know nothing of James's mother's family, or of his paternal grandmother's family.  The unaccounted-for names could very well have come from there.  William and Margaret are such common names (the Clazies are inordinately fond of them) that little can be deduced from their presence.

[T. Michael Sommers]

There was another batch of Clazies in Putnam County, which is on the Hudson between Albany and New York.  I have always suspected that the appearance of Clezies in Troy was not unrelated to that fact.

Tell us your connection, TMS!

I come from the branch of the family that went to Baltimore some time between 1812 and 1819.

In this particular case, there isn't really any Clezie in NY state -- just James Clezie who went there from Toronto and married Ellen Lockhart.

Yes, there were some.  George Oswald Clazey, married to Margaret Hall, is in the 1850 census in Carmel.  George and James were first cousins; their fathers were brothers.

[T. Michael Sommers]

Fantastic!  Thank you, thank you, Janey.  Elexis.  Whoever came up with that name?  And no wonder we haven't found her before!

And no wonder she changed it to Ellen.

[JaneyCanuck]

I guess the thing is that there is no question raised in this thread about the Clezie side of this family. The question in this thread and the numerous others on the same subject is about Ellen Lockhart.

I said: In this particular case, there isn't really any Clezie in NY state -- just James Clezie who went there from Toronto and married Ellen Lockhart.

And disregarding that I said "in this particular case", i.e. in the case of James Clezie and Ellen Lockhart, you replied: Yes, there were some.  George Oswald Clazey, married to Margaret Hall, is in the 1850 census in Carmel.  George and James were first cousins; their fathers were brothers.

Yes, that's interesting, and as I said: they could have been related back in Scotland.

Because in this particular case, the family of James Clezie was settled in Canada by 1840, and his parents remained there, and his siblings are accounted for, and none of them is in NY state ever.

You say: I see no evidence that Ellen was part of this family.

And again, I suggest you read at least this thread, if not the others. No one has suggested there is PROOF of her connection with the family. There are numerous indications of a connection, in particular the fact that the names of the two of her children that are otherwise unaccounted for were the names of the Lockhart/Henderson parents of, apparently, all the other Lockharts of the same generation in Rensselaer County c1840-1855.

"Proof" would be a birth record in Scotland that could then be somehow established to be the birth record of this Ellen. Even if a birth record that fits were to be found, that could not be done, as there is apparently nothing on any other record of hers, i.e. marriage or death, that states her parents' names or a definite birthdate or place. One could only hope for her to turn up as witness on someone's marriage certificate, or informant on a death certificate, or the like. But that is unlikely to happen, as the family scattered, with some concentration in Chicago, and Jane and James Clezie were never there.

The fact is, however, that there are no Scottish birth/baptism records that can be found for any of the children in this Lockhart/Henderson family, not one of them (and for the one born in Canada, it was before records are available).

If Ellen did belong to that family and happened to have stayed in Canada when the family left for NY after the birth of Robert, if that was what happened, which seems to have been in 1836 (Robert's date of immigration to the US, from the 1900 census), when Ellen would have been about 20, then there will be no record of her in the US if she and James simply travelled to Rensselaer County to marry because that was where her family was. There would be no record of a young single woman, likely a domestic servant, in Canada, before 1840.

Ultimately, there may simply be no record anywhere that will establish who Ellen is. All we have now is the hypothesis that she was a daugher of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson, because all of the available facts fit that hypothesis and none of the available facts refute it.

Perhaps you can do better, though! As I said, several of us are still interested.

I trust you have noticed by now (re your quoting of the request for proof of James Clezie's parentage) that there really is no question here on the Clezie side.


TMS, you are replying to things completely pointlessly and just cluttering the thread with repetition. For one thing, it has been established that Elexis and the entire Lockhart family in Lanark County, Ontario, are completely unrelated to this query.